Café de Nuit

There's one issue with Ravenloft Reanimated that should be deal with right away, before any further work is done on the setting, and it's the setting status as a world or a demiplane.

The original Ravenloft setting is not a world per se, as many of its peers back in the TSR days were. Instead, the designed opted to make it a "demiplane", something which added to its eerieness (sp?) and mystery, and which has given us DMs plenty of opportunities to play with it along the way: As a demiplane, Ravenloft can change to accomodate new realms, to get rid of others, to alter the general geography and such. However, this situation (Along with the official TSR decision to rearrange everything during the Grand Conjunction), made Ravenloft seem like an unstable "world" where everything could change in the blink of an eye.

For many, the solution would seem to make RLR a stable, static world, which would add a certain degree of certainty to an otherwise uncertain setting, and will eliminate some of the oddities of the original, but would make it more difficult to toy with, as new realms would not accomodate as easily, and there wouldn't be official excuses to make changes.

But there's a third choice in all of this, which would be the same as "any of the above": Instead of stating from the beginning if RLR would be a world of a demiplane, we may leave it unclear, stating each possibility (Along with their repercusions) in the fluff section of the setting, and leaving the choice to the individual DM (If he wants to make it, cause he can always leave it unstated).

So, what do you think?

Again, votes yet no comments.

I voted for keeping it the same. Really, it doesn't work as well in my eyes if it's not the demiplane. Really, making it an actual world sort of limits things (from a Planescape guy who understands why realms and planes can, and sometimes should, be infinite*). Even if that means making it some part of the Shadowfell, or whatever its called, should the 4e rules be used, so bet it.

*To clarify the parenthetical, I'm not saying that Ravenloft should be infinite, but it should have the ability to grow if needed without having to explain why the planet keeps getting bigger. Let's call it "something with definite borders that can expand even bigger" and then let the scholars of the place try and figure out how that's possible.

A real world offers a longer, richer history, its own customized planar structure and more room for the DM to drop homebrew stuff.

I think part of what makes Ravenloft Ravenloft is it's unique nature as an amorphous planar blob that can and will suck up peoples, places, and things from anywhere and anywhen. That's the way it was first explained to me, and that's what really stuck. If they wanted to, the Mists can find you no matter where you go, and take not only yourself, but your kingdom, your evil king, your 'artefacte ofe terrible doome' and your little doggie too along with.

In my eyes, Ravenloft is supposed to mutable, you're supposed to be able to 'plug and play' with it, throwing in your own domains/villains/heros without concern for how they'll fit historically, culturally, or economically... just so long as it fit the theme and gist of the Demiplane of Dread, it worked. A real world seems to constrain this somewhat... a common history, common heritage, common geography... it seems more like Midnight or World of Darkness than Ravenloft, to be honest.

I like a nice, stable world-but I have Masque of the Red Death for that.

In order for the Dark Powers to maintain a dynamic environment, they need to be able to trap Darklords from other Realms-if we change that, we have to retcon the history of nearly every major Player in Ravenloft, and we negate the flexibility of the setting.

I vote to keep it a mutable Demi-plane, the stuff of nightmares and dark Faery Tales...

Making RLR a "real" world makes it more stable and coherent, and as Igor points out, makes for a more structured history; something that would be firmly in line with our original goals. Moreso, with Ravenloft as a goal, the Dark Powers would be intruders, or at least they would be subject to being driven off, giving the players the possibility to "win".

Then again, the demiplane approach also has its advantages, especially that strange feeling that "Ravenloft can get you wherever you are"; something that adds to its sense of mystery and woe. The point made by DasSoviet is also true, with a mutable demiplane, its easier to play "plug and play" with new domains and stuff, and no matter how interesting and exciting and complete and great we make RLR, DMs everywhere will always want that.

So, I'm still undecided. I think PCs should always think that they're in a real world, that there should be a coherent cultural and geographical baseline to work with, which doesn't scream "FAKE!" everywhere, but I also think DMs should be able to add their own domains to the mixture... In the end, I guess it should be the DMs call to decide one way or the other.

If you're going where I think you're going, WolfKook, you're about to opt for a "compromise" that happens to be the least popular choice in the poll.

Look. You can't please everyone no matter what decision you take, here. There's some of us who like it one way, and some the other. Since consensus doesn't seem possible, why don't you pick the option you like best? We here voters are just random people blurbing out an opinion on the whim of the moment - you're the one seeing the big picture.

Igor the Henchman wrote:If you're going where I think you're going, WolfKook, you're about to opt for a "compromise" that happens to be the least popular choice in the poll.

I don't know where I'm going... I swear I was just giving my opinion, not choosing an option arbitrarily, ignoring everyone else. I guess I didn't make that clear in my previous post, but my intention was to speak for myself, not for the RLR project.

Look. You can't please everyone no matter what decision you take, here. There's some of us who like it one way, and some the other.

I know, and I knew it since I started this project (Mr. Mangrum wisely warned me), but I want the final decision to be taken by the majority, not by my own whim.

Since consensus doesn't seem possible, why don't you pick the option you like best?

Cause going that way I'll end up having my homebrew Ravenloft. It would be way easier, but it would just be my project. Just the situation I wanted to avoid...

We here voters are just random people blurbing out an opinion on the whim of the moment - you're the one seeing the big picture.

Maybe, but this started as a collaborative creative exercise, and I want to keep it that way. Besides, it won't be so fun if in the end no-one likes the final product.

Personally I like mixture of both. A world, but other things can be pulled into the world if the dark powers desire.

Though it wont change in a heartbeat, things can be drawn in, and lands slowly change to the whims of the damned.

Another aspect I like with the world idea, is that it can have its own dread infested planes.

I would love to re-explore the idea of the elemental dread.

Which didnt work so well with the demiplane idea. But with a world it could really become somthing interesting.

Well, if enough of a Toolbox approach was taken (the way GURPS sourcebooks usually did) then gamers could have it either way...

Having said that, I have no idea how that would be achieved without weakening both. If the Voices In My Head come up with any creative ideas(there's a first time for everything!) i'll let you know.

order99 wrote:Well, if enough of a Toolbox approach was taken (the way GURPS sourcebooks usually did) then gamers could have it either way...

Having said that, I have no idea how that would be achieved without weakening both. If the Voices In My Head come up with any creative ideas(there's a first time for everything!) i'll let you know.

Yeap, and the tie still continues. I hope anyone comes with such a creative idea that help us resolve this problem, as the "leave it to the DM" doesn't seem to be an option.

With the voting split, "Leave it to the DM" or "present both options" would probably be the way to go. I just voted my preference, and others probably did the same. So while I prefer demiplane and that's how I voted, I'm not opposed to the idea of presenting options that allow a DM to make a decision that best fits their campaign.

I've always been of the opinion that RAVENLOFT is not a "real" world, in the tangible sense of AL-QADIM or KARA-TUR. It morphs to fit the darkest desires of the strongest personalities because in its essence RAVENLOFT is Hell.

Think about it - motley collection of characters from every corner of the TSR globe. All swallowed by the enigmatic Mists aka Death Itself. Review the origins of every Darklord past or present. The Mists engulfed them after some kind of traumatic event - meaning they died but didn't realize it. YAGNO flees into the Mists after being chased by his family (and slain). STRAHD absorbed after being riddled by arrows (and slain). GABRIELLE flees into the Mists after the wolf eats her mother (and tracks her down to eat her as well - which is why her first "nightmare" in the Dread Realms was BAKHOLIS).

You can't put borders or population levels on Hell because it's Hell! Innocents being brutally slaughtered are actually being reborn again outside Hells gate. Wow what a terrible nightmare! That's why I think it was originally created as a "Weekend in Hell". Because it's a warning to PCs not to tread too far down the path of darkness - or this will be your fate. Find redemption, flee RAVENLOFT, and "awaken" from your terrible nightmare.

So I voted "keep it like it is" because it is not and never will be a "real world". Just my thoughts.

peace,

MSD

I chose the middle ground (again).

To clarify, I think that it should be within the abilities of the Dark Powers to start everyone at the same point in time. One of the issues I have with the Ravenloft setting was the timeline with 'X gets uncovered by the Mists'. I'd like to see a setting which player characters can bounce around in from the beginning.

I want to have my cake and eat it too.

Here's another argument that I think could speak in favor of the "Real World" approach:

It would give the project a definite "wow stroke".

By "wow stroke", I mean the subtle detail that turns a merely good concept into a truly memorable one. In my studies as a graphic designer, we occasionally throw around comments like "looks good, but it still needs the 'wow stroke'" or "That here could be the 'wow stroke' our concept needed" (roughly translated).

As I look at RLR now, I see: Mists. Dark Powers. Core. Islands. A couple domains got a new darklord. A few shifted places. A couple gone. A couple new ones. That's it. What makes it different from canon? A score of subtle changes, but no big difference overall.

But give it a "Let's see how Ravenloft might work as an actual world" angle, and you create something quite different and memorable: a broad, clearly defined innovation. Its different. It hasn't been done. Several people speculated it might be a good idea. It would give RLR a distinctive identity, if nothing else.