Café de Nuit

It has been remarked before that the dread realms are too sparsely populated to sustain the various hungry monsters, murderers, mad scientists and warmongers flexing their muscles.

But consider this for a Dread Possibility: the Dark Powers can make more people if they need to. They can arrange for them to pop up with a lifetime's worth of memories. They can rewrite the memories of the people around them so from their perspective, the new guy was always there.

Imagine what would happen if someone found out. Imagine what would happen if one person's memory was left unaltered by the Dark Powers.
It could be a hero, who has to struggle with the paranoid hell their life has become.
It could be a Darklord who wishes to expunge all that is unscientific and unreal from their realm, only to be stuck with a philosophical nightmare.

Now I'm thinking of a Darklord who: ruthlessly crushed all centers of religion, philosophy and art in their lands; instigated mass-murder of all non-human lifeforms, especially those with innate magical ability; removed all limitations on scientific research; installed a caste system based on measurable usefulness to the state.

He or she prides themselves on being utterly pragmatic and rational, and has zero tolerance for anyone who believes in anything not quantifiable by science.

Now they are trapped in a domain where science is a byword for torture and most people dread to avail themselves of its blessings because they fear its price. No matter how much the Darklord achieves, the people will never celebrate their ruler, because they see the reality: the Darklord is an intolerant monster who stole all the hope and colour from their lives.
Meanwhile, the Darklord is forced to see the irreality of their prison, as the Dark Powers playfully insert and remove people, towns and landmarks, and only the Darklord (and visitors to the realm) can recognize this happening. On top of everything else, the Darklord is regarded as a ranting madman even by those who are more-or-less loyal to them.

I prefer to explain it as a constant supply of M.O.E.C. (Mistled Outlander Expendable Commoners)

The "real" answer is that no party of PCs will ever encounter EVERY canonical monster that exists in the demiplane. For each campaign's given instance of Ravenloft, the monsters that were never seen don't exist. Unless the campaign is the most hack n' slash monster slaying grind, the number of actual monsters thwarted has got to be in the mid dozens. Maybe that's too "meta" of an answer, though.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:The "real" answer is that no party of PCs will ever encounter EVERY canonical monster that exists in the demiplane. For each campaign's given instance of Ravenloft, the monsters that were never seen don't exist. Unless the campaign is the most hack n' slash monster slaying grind, the number of actual monsters thwarted has got to be in the mid dozens. Maybe that's too "meta" of an answer, though.

I agree but my M.O.E.C. idea is canon since Vampires of the Mists...

Martyn Pelkar: Mommy! Daddy!... Lathander...

I prefer rewriting domains an resize the population to keep them sustainable.

Mistmaster wrote:I prefer rewriting domains an resize the population to keep them sustainable.

I do the same and also follow John Mangrum's advice: The world has to feel a bit artificial to give the "feeling" of an evil sentience behind it, moving parts. The way I do it is:
I rule that plague and pestilence, famine and child mortality are not as bad as they were pre-industrial times. What I mean is that from what I have read, a laaarge number of kids in 17th century London died before reaching 5 years old. The "Life expectancy" at birth was abysmal.

But don't take it from me. Here's a source. A scientific source.
As you can see, in 1851, without monsters, 30% of British people died before they reached 10 years of age. And that is in the middle of the Industrial age! And that's when the population of England and Wales were expanding rapidly.
According to this source the population of England to Wales trippled within a century when people had a 30% chance to die by the age of 10 and 50% chance to die by 45.

Saying maaaagic for food (plant growth) and stopping pestilence (healing) or plain ol' handwaving that they don't happen as much allows a lot of deaths by monsters!

What I mean is that if you say "In my Ravenloft, despite 14th-17th century tech, I rule that people would have 1851 AD life expectancy without monsters" means that monsters have to kill 1.1% of the population each year or 11.5% per decade for the population to remain mostly stable.
I.e. "Death by vampire" in Barovia easily becomes the most common cause of death. You know 1000 people in 750 BC? 100-130 of them would die by monsters by 760 BC.

Which... I also don't like so I don't go to such extremes.

My domains tend to be MUCH bigger and more populous than canon. The Core is apx the size of the US. Outside of some city-states and pocket domains the domains are thus large. Also the lack of war (There is basically no war outside of Drakov's idiotic attempts that last only a few months) and disease (Clerical magic isn't that rare in my games) keeps the populations higher. War and disease were the big killers in medieval times.

I look at it and go 'good luck proving that.'

This is a dark-to-middle-ages setting where there's little serious travel, where everyone is suspicious of everyone else, and the overwhelming majority of the population is uncounted. Entire villages of dozens of families you can wander into in the middle of the Barovian wilderness that the 'major' towns don't know exist. Add or subtract them as you go along. The 'official' population numbers are significant undercounts because they don't account for all these little, hidden populations. This both saves them from certain dangers and makes them more vulnerable to others. Of course, because none of them trust outsiders very much, they pretty much all prefer it this way. Populations still naturally circulate as people move around a little (a family or two wanders into town, the lived out in the forest but their home burnt down; are they real people from another world, creations of the mists, exactly what they claim to be, or monsters in disguise? Doesn't matter; eventually after a few years they get accepted into the village as locals.)

Only people from outside Ravenloft are bound to notice any weirdness. For the natives its...literally the natural state of affairs. They don't know of any other possibilities and frankly they don't care to hear about them. "You keep talking about sustainable population numbers, stranger, but our village has been here for over a dozen generations without trouble. The day after you showed up, the murders started. So I think you need to leave, now, or as the mayor I might have to convene a trial and appoint a hangman."

Cromstar wrote:The 'official' population numbers are significant undercounts because they don't account for all these little, hidden populations.

It is also worth wondering which domain governments actually carry out a census and know any sort of population numbers. Some of these places might not even have an official count to check against.

Cromstar wrote:Only people from outside Ravenloft are bound to notice any weirdness.

Jumping on the back of this notion, it's also worth saying that only players who have been to Ravenloft before are bound to notice any weirdness. Ravenloft obviously occupies most of us here on a regular basis. But whenever I've had new players go to the domains (or even players on their second or third time in), no one's ever voiced this concern. Maybe it's just that my players let the world take them. I have no idea.

Now I'm not trying to say that concern doesn't matter. No DM worth their salt should ever be without an explanation for something like this. All I'm suggesting is that these explanations are probably more aids for DMs and players like us who enjoy this specific setting than for the general player who will waltz accidentally into one of the domains and start asking questions.

— onmyoji

brilliantlight wrote:My domains tend to be MUCH bigger and more populous than canon. The Core is apx the size of the US. Outside of some city-states and pocket domains the domains are thus large. Also the lack of war (There is basically no war outside of Drakov's idiotic attempts that last only a few months) and disease (Clerical magic isn't that rare in my games) keeps the populations higher. War and disease were the big killers in medieval times.

And famine.
But if you remove war and lessen pestilence then you need much smaller families or the population would explode within 2 generations.
And smaller families is what I do...

Wolfglide wrote:

Cromstar wrote:The 'official' population numbers are significant undercounts because they don't account for all these little, hidden populations.

It is also worth wondering which domain governments actually carry out a census.

None, I would say. Census was not a thing you did in the Feudal society. The king knew how much tax the vassals should pay and how many soldiers he should expect to show up (and the figures were quite bad on that front, I think). He didn't have a figure about how many families paid said tax.

and know any sort of population numbers. Some of these places might not even have an official count to check against

Azalin knows. Because of Darkon

Since Paridon is just a single city, I wonder if they conduct a census. They lost a bunch of people when the Mists contracted and swallowed the countryside, so they may have been motivated to figure out who was left. It is also important data for figuring out how much agriculture they need to feed the city. It might be hard to get full participation, especially in the poorer boroughs, and the doppelganger infestation will mess with the count.

It makes sense for Azalin to feel the population of Darkon. If there is reason, it might get recorded and passed to lesser officials for some purpose.

alhoon wrote:

Wolfglide wrote:

Cromstar wrote:The 'official' population numbers are significant undercounts because they don't account for all these little, hidden populations.

It is also worth wondering which domain governments actually carry out a census.

None, I would say. Census was not a thing you did in the Feudal society. The king knew how much tax the vassals should pay and how many soldiers he should expect to show up (and the figures were quite bad on that front, I think). He didn't have a figure about how many families paid said tax.

I will just point out that it was a more common practice than one would think. In large part because kings wanted to make sure their nobles were properly paying their taxes and providing levees, etc. The first census of France was taken in 1328, for example (16-17 millions of French people in the Kingdom at the time). The Caliphates also performed extensive census counts over the centuries.

I would suspect that some of the domains have a census: Falkovnia, b/c Drakov wants to know; Darkon, b/c Azalin already knows and he's got a bureaucracy to keep busy; Lamordia, b/c its the science/math-y thing to do. But the others have powers that don't care (Strahd) or don't have the government to perform one (Kartakass).