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The image of a vampire and other supernatural beings held at bay by crosses is common in pop culture horror fiction, but obviously stems from Christianity in the real world. Van Richten's Guide to Vampires clearly includes it as one of the common holy symbols, though: "It should be noted that a holy symbol need not be a traditional one, such as a cross or star, to have power over a vampire." My question is: where does the cross-as-holy-symbol come from in Ravenloft? Would it be a representation of the hilt-up sword depicted on Ezra's symbol? Is such an answer explicitly called out somewhere in canon?

The Eternal Order has the Cross & Skull as a holy symbol, although it is always depicted as an equal-sided cross, not as the elongated one of Christianity. It is conceivable that a simple EO holy symbol could just be the cross itself.

Ender wrote:The image of a vampire and other supernatural beings held at bay by crosses is common in pop culture horror fiction, but obviously stems from Christianity in the real world. Van Richten's Guide to Vampires clearly includes it as one of the common holy symbols, though: "It should be noted that a holy symbol need not be a traditional one, such as a cross or star, to have power over a vampire." My question is: where does the cross-as-holy-symbol come from in Ravenloft? Would it be a representation of the hilt-up sword depicted on Ezra's symbol? Is such an answer explicitly called out somewhere in canon?

No published answer exists, I think.

I think the cross as a stylized Ezran sword, hilt up, works. Good idea.

(I do something similar with the symbol of the Winged Victrix in my homebrew setting.)


You probably want something that looks like a cross fitchy or a cruz espada.



It could also derive from Christianity, if your Ravenloft has some connection with Gothic Earth.

Skyrock wrote:The Eternal Order has the Cross & Skull as a holy symbol, although it is always depicted as an equal-sided cross, not as the elongated one of Christianity. It is conceivable that a simple EO holy symbol could just be the cross itself.

Good call.

And note that Christian crosses come in many shapes, not just elongated.

The one most Westerners think of is the Latin cross. You see it all over the place. But there are also the sword-like crosses I mentioned above, Greek crosses, the Jerusalem Cross, etc.

I haven't looked at the EO holy symbol in a while.

ewancummins wrote:
It could also derive from Christianity, if your Ravenloft has some connection with Gothic Earth.

There are also the connections to the several domains in Ravenloft in the mists that are connected to (in theory) regular Earth from the Ravenloft: The Covenant/Ravenloft Dominion novels (the plantation one from Heaven's Bones, Mithras Court, and at least the crusader himself from Black Crusade). Who knows how many individuals might have come from other Earth's in D&D since there are at least the one from Dragon Magazine where St. Cuthbert's mace ended up in England, Ed Greenwood's house having portals to both Elminster's hideaway and as neutral ground for the "Wizard's Three" articles, Gothic Earth, and probably a bunch more I can't think of off the top of my head that might have ported tiny pockets (or individuals) of a Christian faith into Ravenloft.

Resonant Curse wrote:

ewancummins wrote:
It could also derive from Christianity, if your Ravenloft has some connection with Gothic Earth.

There are also the connections to the several domains in Ravenloft in the mists that are connected to (in theory) regular Earth from the Ravenloft: The Covenant/Ravenloft Dominion novels (the plantation one from Heaven's Bones, Mithras Court, and at least the crusader himself from Black Crusade). Who knows how many individuals might have come from other Earth's in D&D since there are at least the one from Dragon Magazine where St. Cuthbert's mace ended up in England, Ed Greenwood's house having portals to both Elminster's hideaway and as neutral ground for the "Wizard's Three" articles, Gothic Earth, and probably a bunch more I can't think of off the top of my head that might have ported tiny pockets (or individuals) of a Christian faith into Ravenloft.

Maligno's domain of Odiare was retconned/later established as being drawn in from Gothic Earth, no?

Italian kids would very likely be Roman Catholics.
Or perhaps Waldensians.
Either way, Christians.

Keep in mind that the cross is pre-Christian, with the Christians adopting it, along with other variations, out of pure symbolism. Maybe for assimilation purposes but thats a topic for another thread...

So in Ravenloft, aside from some suggestions already offered, the cross could be nature-linked as well. Hala, Belenus, whatever; cross here representing either elements (four), cardinal directions, or anything of a cosmic/celestial interpretation.

Also, Van Richten makes several references to encountering people from other lands (not Ravenloft), so it is entirely possible that the cross is as we know it, just the people of RL view it as a sort of "universal" holy symbol. All they know is that it works...for those that possess the right amount of spiritual fuel (preferrably low sulfur ).

Anyway, interesting topic. Thanks.

Five wrote:Keep in mind that the cross is pre-Christian, with the Christians adopting it, along with other variations, out of pure symbolism. Maybe for assimilation purposes but thats a topic for another thread...

So in Ravenloft, aside from some suggestions already offered, the cross could be nature-linked as well. Hala, Belanus, whatever; cross here representing either elements (four), cardinal directions, or anything of a cosmic/celestial interpretation.

Also, Van Richten makes several references to encountering people from other lands (not Ravenloft), so it is entirely possible that the cross is as we know it, just the people of RL view it as a sort of "universal" holy symbol. All they know is that it works...for that that possess the right amount of spiritual fuel (preferrably low sulfur ).

Anyway, interesting topic. Thanks.

It is a well known historical fact why Christians use the cross as a symbol.

But unless Ravenloft actually has some fantasy form of Christianity, then , yes, crosses will have to symbolize something other than the Crucifixion.

RE " universal" holy symbol:

That is an interesting notion. Nice and simple. It may work especially well in a Hammer Films + dungeon crawling sort of Ravenloft, light on specific religious matter but heavy on Gothic tropes. Just like the module that kicked it all off!

Real-world history being left for other forums...

We have seen:

Cross from Earth Christians
Cruz espada of Ezra
Eternal Order circled cross with skull
Generic holy symbol of unknown origins
connected with Belenus or Hala


Any other suggestions?

ewancummins wrote: It is a well known historical fact why Christians use the cross as a symbol.

But unless Ravenloft actually has some fantasy form of Christianity, then , yes, crosses will have to symbolize something other than the Crucifixion.

The point of my pre-Christian statement was to enable a DM/post reader to actually see just that: that the cross is or can be more than symbolic crucifixion based on real-life religious belief.

And it ties in to my suggestion of a possible universal power: A Life symbol so to speak that is completely independant of systems of belief. Which in turns grants a true believer (of Good, natural/universal order, etc) an edge over Unlife. Its success (when given) is simply, naturally, and "mistakenly" attributed to their belief system/god and not the conduit itself.

It just so happens that the cross as a symbol sits on the fence between real life and a fantasy rpg setting.

Now, effectiveness of this version of the cross versus other more personalised holy symbols (of a specific deity) is a whole other can of worms. Personally, if i were to incorporate a universal symbol into my campaugn id make it more powerful. It grants tbe cleric normal rules for turning undead in RL but it carries a price: the very real possibility of the cleric being branded a heretic by his or her order!

But do continue...Im done justifying.

Five wrote:

ewancummins wrote: It is a well known historical fact why Christians use the cross as a symbol.

But unless Ravenloft actually has some fantasy form of Christianity, then , yes, crosses will have to symbolize something other than the Crucifixion.

The point of my pre-Christian statement was to enable a DM/post reader to actually see just that: that the cross is or can be more than symbolic crucifixion based on real-life religious belief.

And it ties in to my suggestion of a possible universal power: A Life symbol so to speak that is completely independant of systems of belief. Which in turns grants a true believer (of Good, natural/universal order, etc) an edge over Unlife. Its success (when given) is simply, naturally, and "mistakenly" attributed to their belief system/god and not the conduit itself.

It just so happens that the cross as a symbol sits on the fence between real life and a fantasy rpg setting.

Now, effectiveness of this version of the cross versus other more personalised holy symbols (of a specific deity) is a whole other can of worms. Personally, if i were to incorporate a universal symbol into my campaugn id make it more powerful. It grants tbe cleric normal rules for turning undead in RL but it carries a price: the very real possibility of the cleric being branded a heretic by his or her order!

But do continue...Im done justifying.

Cool, no problem. I get what you were going for.

Runequest uses a cross as the Rune of Death, IIRC.
Humakt holds that one, I think.

ewancummins wrote:RE " universal" holy symbol:

That is an interesting notion. Nice and simple. It may work especially well in a Hammer Films + dungeon crawling sort of Ravenloft, light on specific religious matter but heavy on Gothic tropes. Just like the module that kicked it all off!

"Three: The crucifix, symbolizing the power of good over evil. The power of the crucifix in these cases is two-fold: It protects the normal human being, but reveals the vampire, or victim of this vile contagion when in advanced stages."

Right there in the quintessential Hammer film, The Horror of Dracula.

Skyrock wrote:

ewancummins wrote:RE " universal" holy symbol:

That is an interesting notion. Nice and simple. It may work especially well in a Hammer Films + dungeon crawling sort of Ravenloft, light on specific religious matter but heavy on Gothic tropes. Just like the module that kicked it all off!

"Three: The crucifix, symbolizing the power of good over evil. The power of the crucifix in these cases is two-fold: It protects the normal human being, but reveals the vampire, or victim of this vile contagion when in advanced stages."

Right there in the quintessential Hammer film, The Horror of Dracula.

There you go. Read a simple cross for the crucifix and you are good to go.

And that is how a number of examples of early D&D art do it. No crucifixes in sight, but a good number of crosses, which can be read as " generic Lawful and/or Good holy symbol."

Are you familiar with Sir Fang? Origins of the Blackmoor cleric class?
Clerics as Fearless Vampire Hunters!

Oh, and somebody upthread mentioned Greyhawk's Saint Cuthbert.
https://wiki.greyparticle.com/images/8/ ... bert02.jpg


Several GH gods became common example/ rulebook gods in 3E. Saint Cuthbert, somewhat altered, was one of those.

How widespread is his cult? It could be present in Ravenloft.