Café de Nuit

Cronax wrote:Once the daze takes effect (start of the monster turns is how we're doing it I think?)

A note about this to the DMs.

We are getting a little gimped by having debuffs not take effect until the start of the enemy turn. Consider this:

Several debuffs, like dazed and blinded make the target grant combat advantage.

If the debuffs are (save ends), then the enemy gets an opportunity to save before we get the full benefits of that debuff. The same if the debuff lasts "until the start of your next turn." Meanwhile, the enemies get the full effect of any debuffs they use and they generally get to act on those effects before the players get to save against them.

While this matter usually only amounts to whether the players gain combat advantage, there are plenty of other effects that could be completely wasted on this style of debuff handling.

I brought this up to Neo once already in private. In my game, I allow debuffs to take effect immediately, but I have a smaller game and my players are generally more 4e savvy and they recognize what the debuffs do and when they take effect. This may not work in this game with so many people and several players newer to 4e. You can't wait to have them take effect until the next player turn either because a lot of these are used with the intent of hitting the enemy before the enemy gets a chance to act.

In either case, there is skew in the enemies' favor here. Combat advantage can make a big difference in a fight and I think we deserve the opportunity to get full use of our debuffs before the enemy can save against them.

Kage wrote:Meanwhile, the enemies get the full effect of any debuffs they use and they generally get to act on those effects before the players get to save against them.

Actually, speaking with them, enemy debuffs work the same way player ones do, not starting until the PC turn begins. So all in all, its a wash.

Kaitou Kage wrote:

Cronax wrote:Once the daze takes effect (start of the monster turns is how we're doing it I think?)

A note about this to the DMs.

We are getting a little gimped by having debuffs not take effect until the start of the enemy turn. Consider this:

Several debuffs, like dazed and blinded make the target grant combat advantage.

If the debuffs are (save ends), then the enemy gets an opportunity to save before we get the full benefits of that debuff. The same if the debuff lasts "until the start of your next turn." Meanwhile, the enemies get the full effect of any debuffs they use and they generally get to act on those effects before the players get to save against them.

While this matter usually only amounts to whether the players gain combat advantage, there are plenty of other effects that could be completely wasted on this style of debuff handling.

I brought this up to Neo once already in private. In my game, I allow debuffs to take effect immediately, but I have a smaller game and my players are generally more 4e savvy and they recognize what the debuffs do and when they take effect. This may not work in this game with so many people and several players newer to 4e. You can't wait to have them take effect until the next player turn either because a lot of these are used with the intent of hitting the enemy before the enemy gets a chance to act.

In either case, there is skew in the enemies' favor here. Combat advantage can make a big difference in a fight and I think we deserve the opportunity to get full use of our debuffs before the enemy can save against them.

While I agree this is a problem, I should note that currently the enemies are under the same restrictions. (Neither Celeste nor Nerit granted combat advantage last round... not that it would've mattered given their defenses).

Well, throwing this out to the rest of you. If the DMs made a more elaborate set of rules to govern debuffs, would you guys be willing to learn them?

General Note!

Please list what kind of damage your attacks deal. If it's cold or radiant or necrotic or whatever, be sure to say so.

NeoTiamat wrote:Well, throwing this out to the rest of you. If the DMs made a more elaborate set of rules to govern debuffs, would you guys be willing to learn them?

Sure.

FWIW, I think a part of the problem may be that the bad guys (as far as I know) act en masse--everyone with exactly the same initiative--whereas we are assumed to go in whatever order we post. So all their stuff goes on and off in lockstep, whereas if (for example) I were to act last in one turn and give a buff for an ally's attack good until the end of my next turn, and then acted first in the next round, no-one would get the benefit of the buff...giving me a strong incentive not to post 'til other have done their thing, which might be infeasible due to real-life things like computer access or lostboy and I being 8 time zones apart.

Or, otoh, I might go first, give a buff, everyone acts, enemies do their thing, everyone acts again, and I go last in the next round, having given (effectively) two rounds of buff. So maybe it all comes out in the wash? I dunno.

I should point out that what you describe is exactly the problem we attempted to solve by having powers activate and de-activate according to round.

Right now, if you activate a "till the end of your next turn" power, it activates on the DM-round afterwards, and lasts till the next DM round. It will last for exactly one round, no ifs, ands, or buts.

The bad guys act in a specific initiative order in groups. For example, last fight Cedolin would go first, then the turrets. It all came out in the wash in the description bits because we sorted the enemies by room rather than initiative. They've also been running into the same troubles you have been - for instance, no one took any extra damage from the 5 vulnerable psychic Cedolin kept dropping because it didn't activate until the end of the monster round, and everyone saved out of it first.

Standardized effect lengths are part of the concern here, as well as trying to have everyone juggle what status effect is on who and for how long. We've already run into problems with confusions over just positioning and movement, and the DMs would prefer a system that doesn't require us to update the map and enemy list after every post.

*previous post rendered unnecessary by Isy's latest*

Okay, this all sounds even-handed and aboveboard to me...as long as it's a problem for good guys and bad guys alike, it is just one of those inconveniences of asynchronous game-play, methinks.

Okay, that makes more sense now that you've explained how you run the enemy turns.

A few things:

Yalenus, when determining if something is within range, diagonals are counted as single squares so you can hit Nerit with your power as well granting her another free saving throw.

Also, I would like to discuss strategy for a moment:

The single most important tactical principle in any edition of D&D is focused fire. One dead enemy is worth several injured enemies. If any enemy is dead or incapacitated, that means it cannot retaliate on its next turn. Conversely, many creatures become more dangerous when bloodied. The less time they spend where they are bloodied but not yet dead, the better for us. To facilitate this tactic, I would propose that the first person to attack a new target 'call it' so everyone else knows who to finish off first.

If at all possible, people who use AoEs should try to catch the current focused fire target in the burst or blast. Since our tanks seem to be a Paladin and a Swordmage, I would suggest that ideally, they should be attacking the focused fire target while marking secondary targets (since marking dead creatures isn't terribly helpful)

The one exception to this principle is where you have powers with status effects which can incapacitate the target. Since incapacitating a soon to be dead enemy isn't very helpful, it makes sense to use these powers on relatively untouched foes.

Given that we are not expecting to have many encounters each chapter, and that each encounter we do have is pretty long, I would recommend that if you have any powers which last until the end of the encounter or that are sustainable (Flaming Sphere, Majestic Halo, Nine Souls Wrath, etc) I would suggest that you use them as soon as possible to get the entire battle's worth out of them (thumbs up to Kage and Whistler for doing so). This is not as applicable this battle since we expended many of them in the last encounter.

(Sorry if I come off as pedantic)

Well, I was following Tomas' attack on W, but I can refocus on Doctor P. I don't really care either way since both are in range.

As for Kerrian's buff, did you count diagonally and get to Nerit? Because Neo also said Nerit was out of range.

Diagonal squares don't count as any further than straight lines in 4e. If Kerrian can count 10 consecutive squares and reach Nerit, she should get a save.

This is assuming the power isn't weird or anything.

I may have miscounted. *shrug* If so, pardons.

Can someone explain slowly for me (the 4e dunce) how in the hell I use an immediate interrupt with a trigger of an ally being hit. Do I cast it in advance or at that moment? If I do it in advance what type of action does it use up?

It still looks like a helluva lot more than 10, no matter how you slice it . About 12-14 squares.

Also, lostboy, the Immediate interrupts are house-ruled, so you'll definitely need Isy or Neo!