Power checks for spells in MotRD

Discussing Masque of the Red Death
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Ail
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Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by Ail »

So, the heavy take on magic in Masque of the Red Death seems to come from 2nd Ed days (although it is much heavier in 3.5). The powers checks of 1% per spell level are introduced there. Reading that, I get the impression it will be a very quick downfall to become a darklord, but then there may be an attenuating factor: I suppose the RLCS referred in the Masque supplement is the Red Box. Can anyone remember if the descent to darklord in this version had 13 steps, like in DoD, or much less (5 or 6, can't recall)?

Thanks.

Also, has anyone here had the experience of playing? How is it to play an adept or mystic character? Is it playable? Is it boring? Can they do anything else besides casting spells, and still really be effective?
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

The Red Box had the 6-stage powers check system, and page 57 of the booklet, "A Guide to Gothic Earth," from the 2e MotRD boxed set concurs that that's the system for 2e MotRD.

I haven't played it myself, but I always saw the heavy-handed discouragement of magic as something players would have to take to heart and deal with carefully. You don't fling dozens of Magic Missiles every day like a standard D&D (or Ravenloft) wizard and inevitably spiral into darkness, losing your character to the Red Death by level 5. You save your magic for dire need, or when it's the only option, falling back on your wits and mundane weapons most of the time, accepting that when you do have to use magic, you may be tainted, but at least you will have made it worthwhile.

I'm reminded of the Dresden Files novels, which are my current obsession. The modern-day wizard detective Harry Dresden often notes that he could unleash his magic and roast a bad guy, but it's sometimes safer, easier, and just as effective to shoot the bad guy with a gun. :)

PS - And since we do have a forum dedicated to MotRD, I'm moving this thread there.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Failed powers checks for casting spells can be removed much easier through other spells (which itself potentially invites corruption). This is solely in regards to powers checks for casting spells, not for failed powers checks for other reasons or for failing the second powers check for casting a spell that calls one in and of itself.

I have to agree with Gonzoron about the reasons. Magic is not only harder to use (requiring a skill check to cast successfully) but is also meant to be rare with a capital R-A-R-E. There are some parallels with the WOD (old and new) Mage games. It's not assured that a spell works since it requires aptitude and training, there can be severe repercussions if mishandled or witnessed by those not initiated into the supernatural, and it's both wasteful and potentially psychologically damaging to use a spell to do something when more mundane methods would be just as easy. Just use a match to light a candle, not a spell.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by Ail »

High Priest Mikhal wrote:Failed powers checks for casting spells can be removed much easier through other spells (which itself potentially invites corruption). This is solely in regards to powers checks for casting spells, not for failed powers checks for other reasons or for failing the second powers check for casting a spell that calls one in and of itself.

I have to agree with Gonzoron about the reasons. Magic is not only harder to use (requiring a skill check to cast successfully) but is also meant to be rare with a capital R-A-R-E. There are some parallels with the WOD (old and new) Mage games. It's not assured that a spell works since it requires aptitude and training, there can be severe repercussions if mishandled or witnessed by those not initiated into the supernatural, and it's both wasteful and potentially psychologically damaging to use a spell to do something when more mundane methods would be just as easy. Just use a match to light a candle, not a spell.
Oh, I agree with that. I like magic rare, but I worry about game balance. What else would you give an Adept, beyond just spells, to balance the fact that he's not going to use them that much? And on the same boat, intellectuals too. I think I would make them have a d6 hit die, and probably better use of weapons, just to make them useful even without spells.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Game balance is a trickier thing where magic users on Gothic Earth are concerned. Magic takes a lot of time and effort to learn and thus leaves little time for combat training (i.e., a higher THAC0) in the case of adepts. Increasing their health die would work; anyone who's going to learn magic on Gothic Earth is going to be in better shape than the cloistered mages of other worlds. As for combat effectiveness without spells...that's a tough one. If you're willing to go out on a limb it may be possible for adepts to channel magical energy into all weapons they wield at a +1 bonus per four levels (+1 at 1-4, +2 at 5-8, +3 at 9-12, +4 at 13-16, +5 at 17-20). This gives them a better THAC0 and makes them especially useful for battling enemies that require magic weapons to harm. This is especially true since Dexterity is the only real bonus to AC many creatures get (if anyone else wants to explain the rules for firearms vs. armor and damage handling in 2e Gothic Earth, please do). Or allow them to bestow the bonus temporarily on others' weapons as well. Thus the adept handles offense, the mystic handles defense and healing.

That's about the best advice I can give off the top of my head. The setting is so unique it's hard to come up with things that don't completely shatter game balance. If the idea above doesn't do that already.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by Ail »

Thanks, Mikhal.

Very useful, but I don't like much the idea of transferring magic to the weapon. Also, I don't quite feel the need to impose lower thac0 and hit die based on an in-game interpretation of "how difficult magic is".

I don't see an adept have less time to practice shooting or physical health than a medium, nor why the study of magic should make him immediately feeble. And we have some good counter-examples in the literature, starting with Gandalf for example, who is a damn good fighter with his sword. And I was going to say Skeletor, and Mumm-Ra, but these are monstrous and probably not good examples. Anyway, I think Adepts and Intellectuals should be similar in many things, and I'm considering the idea of having only two distinct levels of attack bonuses: good and not-so-good (up to 20, and up to 15). Differences in capability of classes would mostly be in what kinds of weapons they are proficient with.

Right now, I'm adapting from Jonathan Winters' revision, and maybe focus on the following:

- increase hit die
- make magic more decisive when it is used, by making spells more powerful (probably with some meta-magic feat always applied by default and for free, probably Maximize Spell).

But there is one thing I don't like here (although I love the majority): the use of alchemy for intellectuals. I'm looking for something to replace it and keep the classes useful and different enough.

Thanks again.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Rule Zero: It's your game. Do what you want.

Personally I just do away with the longer casting times and powers checks for each spell. A Spellcraft check is sufficient to represent the difficulty of using magic. Rarity owes more to the fact that scientific hubris has made belief in magic and the supernatural a sign of unwillingness or inability to accept reality. Which the Red Death's minions want, since whether it's the Victorian era or the modern day, peer pressure marginalizes those who dare think outside the accepted paradigms. The sheeple don't like to think there are things out there that they don't understand and will go to truly heinous lengths to silence or segregate those who dare profess beliefs that go against accepted paradigms. Until incontrovertible proof is not only staring them in the face, it's ripped it clean off.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by Paladyn »

I've made few tweaks in my MotRD campaign, that are quite similar with your proposals:
- increase hit die = I've changed it to following formula: basic hit points are equal to Con + modifier (characteristic in 3E or HP in 2E).
- magic always deals max effect (damage, range, healing eddects etc), no rolls necessary. It sometimes had been tricky, but still proves well.
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Re: Power checks for spells in MotRD

Post by jules »

What would be the effects of the power checks though?
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