RLR: Demiplane or World

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Should RLR be a "real" world, or a demiplane?

A "real" world
13
36%
The demiplane it has always been
17
47%
Leave the decision to the individual DM
6
17%
 
Total votes: 36

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Post by Sorti »

I agree with Igor, not making it a Real World would end up making it "just another homebrew Ravenloft" instead of a real different idea of the setting.
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Post by WolfKook »

Igor the Henchman wrote:Here's another argument that I think could speak in favor of the "Real World" approach...
It worked... And it got me thinking in how to implement the idea...

...and I came up with one idea, which may be interesting (Or may not).

What if we take the "Reanimated" part of "Ravenloft Reanimated" one step further?

I mean, we started to use the term "Reanimated" as kind of a marketing issue, a catchy name that set the setting apart from its originator. However, it kind of implies that the setting was dead and it somehow came to life (As an undead, a created creature, or something else can be "Reanimated")...

So, what if the "world" Igor proposed somehow "died"? What if it was somehow "reanimated"? (How can you "kill" a world? What happens to a world when it's "dead"? What does "reanimating" a world really mean?)

It's just a seed for thought, but I really think that it could get somewhere...

At least, it took me to thoughts about undead gods (The "Dark Powers"?), about them looking for inhabitants for their dead world by "stealing" them from other worlds, about a "Time of Unparalleled Darkness" which is not set in the future, but in the past, where nobody remembers it, of the vistani being the last of the original inhabitants of the world...

Well, I wonder if the idea could bring us even farther, to that "wow stroke" Igor's looking for.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

It could be a 3e-->4e transition thing. Jester is hard at work on an adventure that would parallel "Die Vecna Die" in terms of switching Ravenloft from 3e to 4e, so Ravenloft Reanimated could be [one version] showing the results of that adventure sequence.

BTW, I am in favor of the "world" idea, as is probably obvious from my Ravenloft Reorganized writings. I don't think it has to be a "real world"--it's still created by the Dark Powers, and they can pull things out and put them in at will--but it would pass inspection as an ordinary world unless you look pretty closely.
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Post by NykylaiHellray »

The idea of the dark powers trying to reanimate a dead world with the people of others is an interesting one.

As is Nathans point of making it seem like a real world to everyone but to those who really know.

As tbh if I was the dark powers I would make the world as real as possible. I mean they allready go to the trouble of fake histories, so they seem to care about how real it looks to some degree.

The point about the vistani being the last true people of this dead world, is also a very interesting thought. Though be carefull in not removing to much of there mystery.
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Post by Igor the Henchman »

WolfKook wrote:
What if we take the "Reanimated" part of "Ravenloft Reanimated" one step further?

I mean, we started to use the term "Reanimated" as kind of a marketing issue, a catchy name that set the setting apart from its originator. However, it kind of implies that the setting was dead and it somehow came to life (As an undead, a created creature, or something else can be "Reanimated")...

So, what if the "world" Igor proposed somehow "died"? What if it was somehow "reanimated"? (How can you "kill" a world? What happens to a world when it's "dead"? What does "reanimating" a world really mean?)

It's just a seed for thought, but I really think that it could get somewhere...

At least, it took me to thoughts about undead gods (The "Dark Powers"?), about them looking for inhabitants for their dead world by "stealing" them from other worlds, about a "Time of Unparalleled Darkness" which is not set in the future, but in the past, where nobody remembers it, of the vistani being the last of the original inhabitants of the world...

Well, I wonder if the idea could bring us even farther, to that "wow stroke" Igor's looking for.
Hey, nice! Very nice indeed! Take a catchy phrase and make it even more catchy by making it literal. This might be a very clever angle.

On to bouncing back ideas:

What sort of "world death" are we speaking of here? A metaphorical "End Of The World As We Know It", or a literal total distruction?

I really like the idea of making the Vistani "the last" of the old people. But maybe killing off everyone is a bit extreme? They might be the only people left who remember the old world, and so know many secrets long claimed by the mists of time. All other surviving folk might not remember or want to remember the Time of Unparalleled Darkness and the mythical "Time Before". So, say for instance that the PCs uncover a hidden pre-ToUD temple below Martira Bay that sports a motif very similar to a PC's family crest - the players would then need to go to the Vistani to figure out what's going on - and find out the PC's ancestry isn't quite all he thought it was.

Placing the Time of Unparalleled Darkness in the past - brilliant! The first image conjured in my head was an uprising of horrific creatures - the first "Children of the Night" that completely overtook the world, preying on humanity and each other. Humanity might have gone extinct but for the Reanimation, a strange phenomenon where particularly evil and tragic individuals were bound to the Land, making it (somewhat) hospitable to humanity once more. Or maybe these "Darklords" were brought in and absorbed from other material worlds. So today, the world consists of domains of dread. The "Reanimation" phenomenon itself is very painful to the Land, twisting and befouling it against mortals - a change all but invisible during the day, but more apparent at night. Evil still reigns over the world, but now its a more subtle evil, allowing humanity an illusion of normality and peace. The Children of the Night have been driven into shady corners, from which they continue to prey upon unsuspecting mortals, but subtly and silently for the most part. And somewhere in the remote corners of the world, there might still be found patches where Unparalleled Darkness holds total sway, displeased of being thwarted by the Darklords, eager to destroy the domains and bring about the world's final death.

What is Strahd's role in this? Its a fairly strong tradition that everything that makes Ravenloft Ravenloft starts with him. Shall we make him a native or an outsider? If, indeed, *everyone* but the Vistani is dead, I guess that makes him an outsider, since his background requires a human-populated Barovia. But I see at least two "native" possibilites for him.

Strahd the Destroyer
Strahd's pact with Death triggered the beginning of the Time of Unparalleled Darkness. His despair and rage at losing Tatyana has tainted to the very soil of Barovia. From Strahd's realm, the infection spread to the rest of the world, destroying it forever. Only the Vistani - and Strahd himself, of course - survive to remember what the world was like before.

Strahd the Savior
The Time of Unparalleled Darkness didn't quite destroy everyone, and a few daring men dared fight back against the Night. Strahd von Zarovitch was such a one, the first true "hero" of the Reanimated world. His war campaign was successful enough to free from evil a whole valley. Strahd called it "Barovia" and became its lord. The inevitable taint within Strahd's soul resurfaced when he fell in love with Tatyana, and he made a pact with the dark forces he had sworn to fight. In so doing, he triggered the Reanimation - he became the first Darklord, and Barovia, the first Domain of Dread.

As usual, I'm just brainstorming ideas here.
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Post by Igor the Henchman »

Thinking about it some more, how about further dramatizing the "Reanimation" aspect by making areas not occupied by domains dead, forlorn and desolate? The "undead" world would require "sustenance" from a darklord's evil for so basic a thing as supporting life.
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Post by WolfKook »

Igor the Henchman wrote:Hey, nice! Very nice indeed! Take a catchy phrase and make it even more catchy by making it literal. This might be a very clever angle.
Thanks, Igor. I was just trying to elaborate on your thoughts...
What sort of "world death" are we speaking of here? A metaphorical "End Of The World As We Know It", or a literal total distruction?
I guess it would have been something in between... Some kind of cataclysm, but not something that would have destroyed everything. As you point out, that's a bit extreme...
I really like the idea of making the Vistani "the last" of the old people. But maybe killing off everyone is a bit extreme? They might be the only people left who remember the old world, and so know many secrets long claimed by the mists of time.
...The only ones who remember events so terrible everyone just prefered to forget... Mmmmmmm.... That sounds good... :wink:
All other surviving folk might not remember or want to remember the Time of Unparalleled Darkness and the mythical "Time Before".
When you speak of the "Time Before", the false history of Falkovnia, with the heroic Silver Kingdoms and that (Which happen to be the bit of false history in Ravenloft which goes a farther way back), comes to mind. Perhaps we can make that "false history" not so false after all.
Placing the Time of Unparalleled Darkness in the past - brilliant! The first image conjured in my head was an uprising of horrific creatures - the first "Children of the Night" that completely overtook the world, preying on humanity and each other. Humanity might have gone extinct but for the Reanimation, a strange phenomenon where particularly evil and tragic individuals were bound to the Land, making it (somewhat) hospitable to humanity once more.
For some reason, by keeping this powerful beings bound to the land, the powers that be (Good or evil, or just plain bastards, as Roti's signature says) prevent the other children of the night from running rampant, and create some "soft spots" where humanity may again flourish, if under the power of these foul beings...
Evil still reigns over the world, but now its a more subtle evil, allowing humanity an illusion of normality and peace. The Children of the Night have been driven into shady corners, from which they continue to prey upon unsuspecting mortals, but subtly and silently for the most part. And somewhere in the remote corners of the world, there might still be found patches where Unparalleled Darkness holds total sway, displeased of being thwarted by the Darklords, eager to destroy the domains and bring about the world's final death.
WOW!!! I like this, a lot.
What is Strahd's role in this? Its a fairly strong tradition that everything that makes Ravenloft Ravenloft starts with him. Shall we make him a native or an outsider? If, indeed, *everyone* but the Vistani is dead, I guess that makes him an outsider, since his background requires a human-populated Barovia. But I see at least two "native" possibilites for him.

Strahd the Destroyer

Strahd the Savior
Better yet. No one knows for sure... :wink:
The Time of Unparalleled Darkness didn't quite destroy everyone, and a few daring men dared fight back against the Night. Strahd von Zarovitch was such a one, the first true "hero" of the Reanimated world. His war campaign was successful enough to free from evil a whole valley. Strahd called it "Barovia" and became its lord. The inevitable taint within Strahd's soul resurfaced when he fell in love with Tatyana, and he made a pact with the dark forces he had sworn to fight. In so doing, he triggered the Reanimation - he became the first Darklord, and Barovia, the first Domain of Dread.
That would make Strahd into an even more tragic figure... A savior who sacrificed his very soul to save the world, and became tainted in the process. The Tergs would have been the bearers of destruction, and he would have accepted to become the first prisoner of the mists, to save his people. After all, Strahd Von Zarovich looks after his own :wink:
Thinking about it some more, how about further dramatizing the "Reanimation" aspect by making areas not occupied by domains dead, forlorn and desolate? The "undead" world would require "sustenance" from a darklord's evil for so basic a thing as supporting life.
So, instead of a misty border, we would have an endless, barren world, where the creatures of the night roam free, in great numbers, unhindered by the presence of the darklords?

Again, I like it...
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Post by Igor the Henchman »

WolfKook wrote: So, instead of a misty border, we would have an endless, barren world, where the creatures of the night roam free, in great numbers, unhindered by the presence of the darklords?

Again, I like it...
We could have the barren lands still be foggy, and the fog could still be supernatural and strange...
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Post by kourkenko »

i really like the shape of the "dead world" ^^

Greats ideas
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Post by Lucien Doomdark »

We could have the barren lands still be foggy, and the fog could still be supernatural and strange...
Could this enable us smoothly integrate some of the good ideas from VRtTM? As well as explain creatures with the 'Mists' descriptor?
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Post by Igor the Henchman »

Lucien Doomdark wrote: Could this enable us smoothly integrate some of the good ideas from VRtTM? As well as explain creatures with the 'Mists' descriptor?
Of course. The idea for the Project I think is to add to the setting's possibilities, not substract from them.
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Post by NykylaiHellray »

I have to say the idea of the dread realms being a dead world has given me new ideas about fixing how elementals are intergrated into ravenloft.

I was looking at libermortis and came across the Necromentals.

-Voidwraiths
-Cinderspawns
-Desiccators

Sadly i could not find one for earth.

Now in some ways these are very reminiscent of the retconned negative quasimentals.

The idea I am considering, what if the elementals of the world are dead since the world is?

Now how does that explain the dread elementals?

Well these would be a rare breed of creatures that retained there existance by merging with the dark power of the mists.

Becoming mad in the process.

I also pondered making the dread elementals inspired by the checks.

Blood could become a manifestation of madness, pyre becomes a manifestation of horror, and grave of fear. Mist elementals become kinda special, being in some respects more akin to the mist.

What do people think of changing the elementals like this?
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Post by WolfKook »

NykylaiHellray wrote:I have to say the idea of the dread realms being a dead world has given me new ideas about fixing how elementals are intergrated into ravenloft.

I was looking at libermortis and came across the Necromentals.

-Voidwraiths
-Cinderspawns
-Desiccators

Sadly i could not find one for earth.

Now in some ways these are very reminiscent of the retconned negative quasimentals.

The idea I am considering, what if the elementals of the world are dead since the world is?

Now how does that explain the dread elementals?

Well these would be a rare breed of creatures that retained there existance by merging with the dark power of the mists.

Becoming mad in the process.

I also pondered making the dread elementals inspired by the checks.

Blood could become a manifestation of madness, pyre becomes a manifestation of horror, and grave of fear. Mist elementals become kinda special, being in some respects more akin to the mist.

What do people think of changing the elementals like this?
Don't forget such creatures as Bloody Mary's, Mist Sylphs, etc. I don't remember where they come from, but they can add to your ideas on dread elementals.
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Post by Igor the Henchman »

I like the ideas for the new dread elementals and their spin-offs. And how new setting lore is slowly developing.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

I have to say, I am not in favor of Ravenloft being a "dead" world. It feels too over-the-top--more like a layer of the Abyss.

I do like the idea of Ravenloft being an unformed world. The Mists tend to coalesce around the strongest emotion/personality/idea; in places with a darklord, the Mists build a domain around him/her/it. In places without one, they're...waiting.

Sometimes this can result in a Mist Horror, an oubliette, or a phantasmagorium. Sometimes it results in a fey creature--an archetype like Winter, Pain, or Second Sight. Sometimes--very occasionally--the Mists create a new god.

Baduin9 (I think) wrote an interesting thing about basing Ravenloft on the "pathetic fallacy" that I think is applicable here...I'll see if I can dig it up.

That's my two cents on this subject, anyway.
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