New World Order, or, Ravenloft Reorganized

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New World Order, or, Ravenloft Reorganized

Post by Nathan of the FoS »

This is a spin-off of the "What Projects Are Still Going On?" thread, in which I introduced the idea of assembling the various canon and semi-hemi-demi-canon domains of Ravenloft into a world which would pass inspection as "normal"--no Mists billowing at land's end, no Shadow Rift, nothing that screams This place is fake.

It still is fake, of course, but less overtly so. :)

This produces a host of questions, a very few of which I've considered:

1) The Basic Concept: Ravenloft could pass for a real world in the sense that Krynn, Faerun, etc. are real worlds. It isn't, of course, but it isn't immediately obvious to an outsider. So--a consistent geography and no outright bizarreness (chief offender: the Shadow Rift).

2) The Mists: They still exist, but they're no longer overtly omnipresent; essentially, they just blend in better.


3) Tir-na-Nogth: One can transition between the "normal" world and a shadowy world overlaying it (how and when this happens varies from place to place, although there are some commonalities). By day the Thousand-League Forest is a rather dangerous forest of the ordinary kind, just like the Wolfwood; but on moonlit nights one can transition into Faerie without realizing it, and (if one is unlucky) never get out.

At most points Tir-na-Nogth simply mirrors the waking world, but not everywhere. Faerie and the Nightmare Lands are the two most important examples of this, although others might exist. For example, I'm thinking of making Necropolis another one--in the "real" world, Azalin just destroyed Il Aluk, much as if he'd detonated a small atomic weapon there, but the inhabitants and buildlings were wrenched into Tir na Nogth, where they continue their "life" as they did before the Hour of Ascension. Il Aluk can't be resettled, though, because the boundary between the waking world and Tir-na-Nogth is extremely unstable there and if you're in the Shroud after nightfall...

Tir-na-Nogth is umbral, rather than ethereal, in nature; it represents the transition between Ravenloft and the Plane of Shadow. (I believe John Mangrum refers to this as the Umbral Curtain, but Tir-na-Nogth has better connotations for the way I want to develop this particular idea.)

4) How to group things: Yet to be determined. The Core demands to be kept together, and I'd like to keep existing clusters together, but beyond that I have only a few, rather vague ideas.

5) Limited flexibility of domain borders: It really is possible to enlarge one's domain at the expense of another; it's just hard. If you, as a warring darklord, can kill your opposite number, you may get the whole thing.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

DeepShadow wrote:Whoa, hold it.

Okay, so is there an overarching theme for all of this? Any general guidelines? I did "RL w/o DP's" and ended up with something quite similar, but I started with rules that led to everything that followed. Is this RL after the Mists have retreated? Are there domain borders? Are DL's still chained?

I understand that "put like things together" can be a perfectly good guideline, but I have a couple of concerns:

a) this does not explain all changes, such as putting the Black Duke in charge of the Church of Bane.

b) like things don't always go best together. There are deserts on many continents IRL, so why lump them all together here?

I'd like to see if we can hammer out some guidelines before plunging in full-force.
So! Guidelines. I've put a few things in the first post. What are the other outstanding questions? Two that spring to my mind are: Are border closures allowed? How much should we fiddle with other stuff (ex: putting the Black Duke in charge of the Banite Church)?

Others?
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Lost Heretic wrote:I must say that this is a very interesting and massive task, but I'm not sure if it's the correct project to tackle. I've only been paying attention to this site and reading it's material for a few months, but a common problem I have found in the articles (Note, I've only read the first six QtR) is that the vast majority of the articles are player-oriented or just tool-kits for Dungeon Masters. I have yet to an article which is solely oriented towards providing tips and insight. Most of the articles are really just ideas that someone's been playing around with and wants to share.
That's interesting--what kind of articles do you have in mind? More along the lines of "how to run Ravenloft games", as opposed to presenting new NPCs and so forth?
Deepshadow has brought up an excellent set of points:
DeepShadow wrote:Okay, so is there an overarching theme for all of this? Any general guidelines?

This got me thinking as to the immense potential that this project holds. I, personally, struggled with the canonical Core as I was creating the game that I'm now running. I personally threw out the canon material and opted to make a continent solely passed off of central and eastern Europe. (If you're wondering, my game includes a butchered Sanguinia, Vorostokov, Barovia, dark ages Lamordia, Falkovnia, an island version of Tepest that's more akin to Corsica, a less developed version of Borca and Hazlan) I personally recycled a lot of ideas presented in the basic campaign setting (Hazlik now has some traits of Azalin, Borca is a fusion of Richemulot, Borca and Dementlieu, etc) but the world became some thing different.

This was a lot of work and I struggled quite a bit along the way, but the fact that the various Domains are so modular, allowing Dungeon Masters to plug-n-play the regions where they want, provides a great potential for creating your own unique setting. As such, rather than just providing DMs with inspiration as to how they can rebuild the setting by showing them your own rebuilt setting, why don't we take it a step further?

A book to provide Dungeon Masters with the motivation, ideas and guidance to create their own version of Ravenloft could be a very powerful tool for the community. The netbook could provide essays on choosing themes, developing the lands geography (maybe even some information of making your own maps!), as well as text concerning developing new political tensions and trade between regions that have never had any canonical relations. Additionally, examples throughout the netbook would be very useful, and using your personal New World Order idea could be very useful for explanations as well as developing it as well.
So, a "how to customize Ravenloft" book? That sounds really interesting, actually. It sounds like an incredible amount of work, but...well, that's how these things go.

Is there interest for something like this?
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Post by Lost Heretic »

Well, I was careful to state 'essays.' In my experience, and this may in fact be the definition to an extent, an essay is a piece of text that provides many perspectives and a plethora of information in a limited amount of space. One could potentially go on and on concerning just one aspect of world-building, which would make this quite an arduous project. However, setting it up as a collection of essays (citing your world as an example, and possibly providing it in an appendix at the end) could make for a shorter netbook with just as much information. Additionally, this form of compilation allows for a number of different authors to write without infringing on the work of others. However, the one time I've seen this style done in a roleplaying sourcebook, The Vampire Player's Handbook, the various styles and different approached did not mesh well and made for a lackluster product.

Anyway, if you'd like, I have a deal of free time this week and I could try to write up an essay to show what it might look like. Even if the community decides against this project, it could still be used in a QtR issue. It's a win-win situation, I think. :)
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Lost Heretic wrote:Well, I was careful to state 'essays.' In my experience, and this may in fact be the definition to an extent, an essay is a piece of text that provides many perspectives and a plethora of information in a limited amount of space. One could potentially go on and on concerning just one aspect of world-building, which would make this quite an arduous project. However, setting it up as a collection of essays (citing your world as an example, and possibly providing it in an appendix at the end) could make for a shorter netbook with just as much information. Additionally, this form of compilation allows for a number of different authors to write without infringing on the work of others. However, the one time I've seen this style done in a roleplaying sourcebook, The Vampire Player's Handbook, the various styles and different approached did not mesh well and made for a lackluster product.

Anyway, if you'd like, I have a deal of free time this week and I could try to write up an essay to show what it might look like. Even if the community decides against this project, it could still be used in a QtR issue. It's a win-win situation, I think. :)
Sounds good. I'd certainly be interested to see such an essay.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

So, let's backtrack a little: why change Ravenloft at all? This actually goes to an even more basic question--what makes Ravenloft Ravenloft?

DeepShadow mentioned his "Ravenloft with no Dark Powers", which is about as big an alteration as can be made to Ravenloft, and I hope he'll make his notes on that available; I thought it was one of the most interesting examples of tailoring a campaign setting I've ever seen or heard of. (Another good example is Matthew L. Martin's "Dragonlance Anti-Canon" over on the Dragonlance Nexus message board.)

That's about as big an alteration to Ravenloft as can be made and have it still be recognizable, and I'm not looking for something that big in my project (although some changes may end up similar in scope).

The things that make Ravenloft Ravenloft are, IMO:

1) The NPCs. Strahd, Azalin, Harkon Lukas, etc. =Ravenloft.
2) The Dark Powers and/or the Mists: the unknown and inscrutable architects of the world.
3) Game mechanics: Fear/Horror/Madness/Dark Powers checks, darklords and domains, and so forth.
4) Atmosphere: Varies widely, from "Masque of the Red Death"-like high-tech, low magic Gothic to splatterfest to fantasy horror, but generally looking to Mary Wollstonecraft, Bram Stoker, Steven King, and, to a lesser degree, H.P. Lovecraft (cosmic horror) for inspiration, rather than the high fantasy of, say, J.R.R. Tolkein.

Please feel free to add to the list!
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

So--in the current project I intend to keep 1-3 and set 4 to my liking. Now, for pet peeves:

Ravenloft is notoriously a patchwork world, and I would like to integrate it into a "more perfect union", if you'll forgive the borrowing.

Ravenloft has some bizarre discontinuities--the Misty Border, the Shadow Rift--which strike me as aesthetically undesirable. I like the idea of the Mists being less determinate--more like the Bermuda Triangle and less "south of Sithicus lies the Mists". Hence the decision to abolish the Mists as a geographical feature.

Of course, this means that all the domains to be used must be situated relative to each other somehow; since we're familiar with spherical worlds, that's the natural fallback.

This also allows (in fact, practically demands) that we include many domains which are not canon, just to fill up space. So much the better; we can draw on the Book of S series, the Undead Sea Scrolls, Quoth the Raven, and other sources to round out the world (literally :) ).
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Re: New World Order, or, Ravenloft Reorganized

Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Nathan of the FoS wrote:1) The Basic Concept: Ravenloft could pass for a real world in the sense that Krynn, Faerun, etc. are real worlds. It isn't, of course, but it isn't immediately obvious to an outsider. So--a consistent geography and no outright bizarreness (chief offender: the Shadow Rift).
At the risk of getting anal--we're talking about a realistic fake world here--would this new world include reasonable scale, population densities, ecology and so forth?
2) The Mists: They still exist, but they're no longer overtly omnipresent; essentially, they just blend in better.
Okay, so the whole world is foggy? Or are there inexplicable banks of fog that roll up out of the ground at times?

How's this: part of the "Mists" blending in is that they aren't always misty. In the desert, you've got mirage, dust storm or a heat haze. In polar areas, snowstorms.

And what of the Vistani, or the Church of Ezra?
3) Tir-na-Nogth: One can transition between the "normal" world and a shadowy world overlaying it (how and when this happens varies from place to place, although there are some commonalities). By day the Thousand-League Forest is a rather dangerous forest of the ordinary kind, just like the Wolfwood; but on moonlit nights one can transition into Faerie without realizing it, and (if one is unlucky) never get out.
I don't quite get it. Is this to repair the Shadow Rift? If so, it seems like an overkill cure. But then I'm probably missing something.
At most points Tir-na-Nogth simply mirrors the waking world, but not everywhere. Faerie and the Nightmare Lands are the two most important examples of this, although others might exist. For example, I'm thinking of making Necropolis another one--in the "real" world, Azalin just destroyed Il Aluk, much as if he'd detonated a small atomic weapon there, but the inhabitants and buildlings were wrenched into Tir na Nogth, where they continue their "life" as they did before the Hour of Ascension. Il Aluk can't be resettled, though, because the boundary between the waking world and Tir-na-Nogth is extremely unstable there and if you're in the Shroud after nightfall...
Ah, so this Dark Fairy World is your way to take the edge off the blatantly obvious crap that people have thrown into RL. I'm curious to see how it would redu Daglan's Funhouse-o-Bones.
Tir-na-Nogth is umbral, rather than ethereal, in nature; it represents the transition between Ravenloft and the Plane of Shadow. (I believe John Mangrum refers to this as the Umbral Curtain, but Tir-na-Nogth has better connotations for the way I want to develop this particular idea.)
I think I'm starting to get it, but I want more. If this is going to be worldwide, I'd like more detail...and I think it should go by multiple names.

FWIW, making it Umbral could allow it to serve for Mist Travel, just like Shadow Walking.
4) How to group things: Yet to be determined. The Core demands to be kept together, and I'd like to keep existing clusters together, but beyond that I have only a few, rather vague ideas.
I think we should examing all the worldwide effects thoroughly before positioning domains.
5) Limited flexibility of domain borders: It really is possible to enlarge one's domain at the expense of another; it's just hard. If you, as a warring darklord, can kill your opposite number, you may get the whole thing.
Interesting. Sounds something like Birthright. Could it be that DL's can leave their domains, but at the cost of their DL powers?
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Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Nathan of the FoS wrote:DeepShadow mentioned his "Ravenloft with no Dark Powers", which is about as big an alteration as can be made to Ravenloft, and I hope he'll make his notes on that available; I thought it was one of the most interesting examples of tailoring a campaign setting I've ever seen or heard of.
Why not? They were a huge hit last time, and it's not like I have to do more than cut & paste. Where would you like them? I don't know if you recall the old RL-DP's thread on the Karg board, but it was loooonnng, so I'd hate to take over your thread with my stroll down memory lane.
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Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Nathan of the FoS wrote:Ravenloft is notoriously a patchwork world, and I would like to integrate it into a "more perfect union", if you'll forgive the borrowing.
Sure 'nuff. Matter of fact, I think it's a fitting title for our project.
Ravenloft has some bizarre discontinuities--the Misty Border, the Shadow Rift--which strike me as aesthetically undesirable. I like the idea of the Mists being less determinate--more like the Bermuda Triangle and less "south of Sithicus lies the Mists". Hence the decision to abolish the Mists as a geographical feature.
I'm with you on this. If I may be so bold as to read the minds of the original writers, I think they were striving to replicate the claustrophobic feel of old Gothic stories, which relied on a small space. IMHO, that's also the reason for the small scale.

The problem is, we're a modern audience, and what appealed to them back then isn't going to appeal to us now. Modern suspense thrillers usually don't have the hero trapped in a small space, trying to get away. They often have him running, driving, boating or flying huge distances, and still not getting away. Modern technology has him bugged with a GPS chip so that he can't put enough distance behind him to not get found. The tension isn't maintained by showing how you can't escape the surroundings, but rather that you can't escape the ones chasing you, no matter how far you run.

In this regard, fantasy elements take the place of technology. As I said in another thread, the terror of offending Azalin isn't that you can't escape Darkon, but that between the Kargat and his crystal ball, there's nowhere outside of Darkon that you can run. His arm is long enough for the scale to be irrelevant.

And...(deep breath) all that's why I think the scale should be ajusted along with the Mists leaving as a geographic feature. It's a better reflection of modern horror, and despite how we insist that RL is Gothic, it's not, because we're not.
Of course, this means that all the domains to be used must be situated relative to each other somehow; since we're familiar with spherical worlds, that's the natural fallback.

This also allows (in fact, practically demands) that we include many domains which are not canon, just to fill up space. So much the better; we can draw on the Book of S series, the Undead Sea Scrolls, Quoth the Raven, and other sources to round out the world (literally :) ).
It might not be too soon to start assembling a list for us to at least look over. I want to hammer out world-rules first, as I said, but having domains in mind is a good idea.
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Re: New World Order, or, Ravenloft Reorganized

Post by Nathan of the FoS »

DeepShadow wrote:At the risk of getting anal--we're talking about a realistic fake world here--would this new world include reasonable scale, population densities, ecology and so forth?
I think I'm trying to strike a balance--largely realistic, at least to surface examination, with a few weirdnesses to accommodate certain domains (i.e., the Vorostokov/Tsuu-y-Teke thing at the poles).
2) The Mists: They still exist, but they're no longer overtly omnipresent; essentially, they just blend in better.
Okay, so the whole world is foggy? Or are there inexplicable banks of fog that roll up out of the ground at times?

How's this: part of the "Mists" blending in is that they aren't always misty. In the desert, you've got mirage, dust storm or a heat haze. In polar areas, snowstorms.
Sure--any condition which limits visibility sufficiently can serve as cover for a literal "change in scenery".
And what of the Vistani, or the Church of Ezra?
The Vistani just...come and go. The Mists are accessible to them everywhere, and they can use them to leave one place and appear in another essentially without regarding the intervening space. (It would be interesting if they had to go around certain places--Faerie, Necropolis, reality wrinkles...but that's a relatively minor point.) For the Church of Ezra, I'm not sure--I guess that brings us to the concept of divinity in the new Ravenloft...
I think I'm starting to get it, but I want more. If this is going to be worldwide, I'd like more detail...and I think it should go by multiple names.
Well, I don't have a lot more at present--care to contribute? I can't decided whether to combine this and the Near Ethereal or to keep them separate; I prefer keeping them separate, but it makes it harder to justify bringing Necropolis into Tir-na-Nogth instead of the Near Ethereal if they are separate; presumably ordinary ghosts are in the Near Ethereal, so why wouldn't Necropolis be, too? (One could say that it was because of the nature of the magical energies released, but that's a bit too obvious a spackling-over.)

Perhaps Mists=Ethereal and Shadows=Umbral?...just thinking "out loud".
FWIW, making it Umbral could allow it to serve for Mist Travel, just like Shadow Walking.
Sure.
5) Limited flexibility of domain borders: It really is possible to enlarge one's domain at the expense of another; it's just hard. If you, as a warring darklord, can kill your opposite number, you may get the whole thing.
Interesting. Sounds something like Birthright. Could it be that DL's can leave their domains, but at the cost of their DL powers?
Interesting idea...I haven't thought about that. (I'm not that familiar with Birthright mechanics). So, the idea would be that the curse follows you, but the powers stay behind?
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

DeepShadow wrote:
Nathan of the FoS wrote:DeepShadow mentioned his "Ravenloft with no Dark Powers", which is about as big an alteration as can be made to Ravenloft, and I hope he'll make his notes on that available; I thought it was one of the most interesting examples of tailoring a campaign setting I've ever seen or heard of.
Why not? They were a huge hit last time, and it's not like I have to do more than cut & paste. Where would you like them? I don't know if you recall the old RL-DP's thread on the Karg board, but it was loooonnng, so I'd hate to take over your thread with my stroll down memory lane.
You could put them here, or just make a file of them and send them to us to be placed in the DM section (I forget its name at the movement).
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

DeepShadow wrote: to read the minds of the original writers, I think they were striving to replicate the claustrophobic feel of old Gothic stories, which relied on a small space. IMHO, that's also the reason for the small scale.

The problem is, we're a modern audience, and what appealed to them back then isn't going to appeal to us now. Modern suspense thrillers usually don't have the hero trapped in a small space, trying to get away. They often have him running, driving, boating or flying huge distances, and still not getting away. Modern technology has him bugged with a GPS chip so that he can't put enough distance behind him to not get found. The tension isn't maintained by showing how you can't escape the surroundings, but rather that you can't escape the ones chasing you, no matter how far you run.

In this regard, fantasy elements take the place of technology. As I said in another thread, the terror of offending Azalin isn't that you can't escape Darkon, but that between the Kargat and his crystal ball, there's nowhere outside of Darkon that you can run. His arm is long enough for the scale to be irrelevant.

And...(deep breath) all that's why I think the scale should be ajusted along with the Mists leaving as a geographic feature. It's a better reflection of modern horror, and despite how we insist that RL is Gothic, it's not, because we're not.
Well, the claustrophobia definitely has its effects (the serial killer always cuts the phone lines, back when there were phone lines--see Misery for a top-notch example), but I think it's better as a local effect rather than a global one, for obvious reasons. I'm definitely in favor of a large scale; as currently imagined the "Core" section of the "More Perfect Union" is Europe-ish in size. (This has a bunch of side effects we won't address at present, and changes the feel of many of the domains quite a bit, but mostly, I think, for the better, given the stated aims of the project.)
It might not be too soon to start assembling a list for us to at least look over. I want to hammer out world-rules first, as I said, but having domains in mind is a good idea.
Here's a tentative list, grouped in rough geographic terms (grouped largely by real-world culture inspiring the domain, at present):

The Core: The Core, plus the Frozen Reaches (north of Darkon), the Shadowborn Cluster (mostly where the Shadow Rift now stands), Paridon (on the Dementlieu/Mordent border), Nosus (in Nova Vaasa), Odiare (Borca/Barovia).

"Americas": Yatehcaa, Arkandale, Souragne, Nueva Aragona, Mictlan, Cumbre de Oro, possibly Igid Rabi'i, others?

"Middle East"--Har'Akir, Sebua, Pharazia, al-Kathos, the Wounded City, others?

"Asia"--Sri Raji, I'Cath, Rokushima Taiyoo, Igid Rabi'i?, others? (I believe Igid Rabi'i is supposed to reflect the Phillipines, but it shares a common origin with Mictlan and Cumbre de Oro--hence it temporarily appears on both lists. I suppose it could be used as a bridging domain between the two?)

"Oceanic": Sea of Sorrows, Nocturnal Sea, Saragoss, Whal (an island, of course), the Coral Sea (homebrew, not yet written up anywhere--essentially Caribbean, with a darklord based on Henry Morgan), others?

"Exotic": Vechor, Kalidnay, Saarkaath, Tovag, Tsuu-y-Teke, Bluetspur, others?

"Shadowed": Going back to the Tir-na-Nogth idea. Faerie, the Nightmare Lands, and Necropolis are naturals here--are there others?

****
My initial thought is to put the Core at the north, with Vorostokov at the north pole, as describe elsewhere, and to group the exotics (except Bluetspur and probably Vechor) at the extreme south, with Tsuu-y-Teke at the south pole. Bluetspur goes on the moon, of course. :)

Feel free to make a list of domains to add, and to say where you think the ones alread listed should be placed.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Here's a few thoughts on the composition of the world:

MISTS: The "real" world is made of Mist--deep ethereal substance given form by the Dark Powers. The Vistani and the Ezrans have a deeper connection to Mist than others do; some might say the Vistani are Mist, and that the Ezrans learn to become Mist, while other humans are made of some other kind of matter--or perhaps all natives of Ravenloft are Mist, but only the Vistani and the Ezrans know it and know how to use it to their advantage.

ETHEREAL: One explanation for "ethereal" matter, as Ravenloft natives perceive it, is that the energy used to maintain deep ethereal substance in a solid, consistent form has "echoes" which can endure even after the main substance has become disorganized (i.e., a human's physical body dies, but its "ethereal echo"--the ghost--continues).

This can happen for places as well as people, causing the phenomenon of "ethereal resonance" and "sinkholes of evil". These distortions are most commonly associated with strong emotions, especially negative emotions; there are many ghosts because many people die with strong (usually negative) emotions surrounding the circumstances of their deaths, and the person's "echo" serves as a focus.

A place generally has less emotion inherent to it, and so most of them eventually lose their distinguishing characteristics. However, some of these "place echoes" become so energetically charged that they becoming self-perpetuating, generating enough energy to sustain themselves indefinitely (as with the House on Gryphon Hill and other phantasmagora). With enough energy, the local "Mist" environment--what is perceived as the "real world"--becomes unstable and subject to sudden changes (Castle Tristenoira).

There is no "boundary" between the Mists and the Ethereal; local conditions may make Ethereal "echoes" more or less apparent, but both are, in the last analysis, aspects of the Ethereal Plane.

SHADOW: The Deep Ethereal and the Plane of Shadow meet here, and generate a place with some characteristics of both. Generally speaking Tir-na-Nogth, the Umbral Certain, the Shadowlands, or whatever the local name for this place is, reflect the structure of the Mists, but they do so less strongly than does the Ethereal. Severe local distortions of the Mists can produce odd effects in the Mists and vice-versa; for example, the reality wrinkle of the Sorcerer-Fiend, trapped here between the Plane of Shadow and Ravenloft proper, distorts the Thousand-League Forest so severely that it is relatively easy to cross between Tir-na-Nogth and Ravenloft proper wherever its influence lies. For another example, the local energy distortions of the Hour of Ascension were so severe that they totally destroyed both the Mists and the Ethereal in the place where Il Aluk once stood, but made a permanent "copy" or "imprint" of Il Aluk in Tir-na-Nogth, where Death holds sway over a dead city. The Nightmare Lands are found in this same space.

It requires a fair amount of energy to cross between the Mists and Tir-na-Nogth--much more than to manifest "echoes" from the Ethereal in the Mists. Ghosts and other Ethereal manifestations are usually much less apparent and much less able to act in Tir-na-Nogth than they are in the Mists.
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Nathan of the FoS
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Is the above reasonably clear? I'm especially worried about explaining the interaction of the "Mists" with the "Ethereal"--are there questions about that?
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