Another alternate Drakov

Discussing all things Ravenloft
User avatar
ewancummins
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 28523
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:35 pm

Another alternate Drakov

Post by ewancummins »

I've discussed Drakov as a lover of glory in another thread.

But looking again at the Black Box, I think it may make sense to evaluate him like so:

He is a merc who wants to be a king. What he craves most is respect and legitimacy. Respect of other rulers, and deference from aristocrats.

His curse is not that he loses all the time. Nope. That is essentially the result of border closures, special darklord lowers, scads of undead, etc.
His curse is that nothing he does can get him what he wants. Respect of those he sees as peers. His expansionist campaigns to date have failed, yes. But even if he succeeded and actually conquered a Domain by sending his armies across a border, or whatever else, things would backfire on him from within Falkovnia.
Some underlings would turn against him.
His peasants would rebel.
Other rulers and their envoys are repulsed by the mere sight of him.
Drakov can kill a lot of people. His armies might well smash things up beyond the border. But this only deepens the contempt and loathing foreign rulers and nobles feel for the tyrant-usurper of the Forest Kingdom.
Maybe diplomats only call it Falkovnia to avoid being impaled.
People of quality sneer at the silly name the bird-obsessed maniac gave to the forested backwater he overrran with his uncouth foreign mercanries.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8804
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by alhoon »

I... kinda think that's the official one and that the Dark Powers make sure that he keeps losing because victories bring legitimacy.

From what I've seen so far, his people don't respect him as king. They are afraid of him as the big bully. The same way a big hill giant that terrorizes a village, smashing people for fun and eating their food is not considered their king.
So, I've been playing Drakov watching his victims being impaled on sticks and still not respecting him or even acknowledging him as their tyrannical king. Strahd is also despised. Many Darkonese hate Azalin Rex. But both of those are considered the lawful rulers of their respective land, even if some\majority of their people despise them.

And truth be told, you don't get respect and legitimacy by butchering people. You earn their fear, you earn their compliance once you break their spirit. You don't earn respect or legitimacy.


PS. Another thing: I play that many\most of the Talons also don't consider him their king. Their boss, their superior commander... but not king. They would lay their lives at his feet (because of the weird mind-altering rituals and conditioning) but not because he's their king. They are a mercenary force controlling a country, not a national army.

I also don't think that nearby rulers see him as an usurper; they see him as a mercenary and bandit leader that occupies some land and don't pay attention to him. They ignore him whatever he does to attract their attention.
8000-strong invasion? Closing of the borders for a day. Done. Back to my game of chess, it's my move.
That's why I believe it's important for him to keep losing; so that people could keep ignoring him.

TL;DR: I think it's quite clear in the material that people, even those loyal to him or afraid of him, see Drakov as we see modern-day drug cartel barons \ Warlords in lawless lands that control villages through machinegun-bearing trucks. Yes, the local Somali villagers would give to the gang that rode in their village what they want out of fear, but they don't consider them government.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
brilliantlight
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

alhoon wrote:I... kinda think that's the official one and that the Dark Powers make sure that he keeps losing because victories bring legitimacy.

From what I've seen so far, his people don't respect him as king. They are afraid of him as the big bully. The same way a big hill giant that terrorizes a village, smashing people for fun and eating their food is not considered their king.
So, I've been playing Drakov watching his victims being impaled on sticks and still not respecting him or even acknowledging him as their tyrannical king. Strahd is also despised. Many Darkonese hate Azalin Rex. But both of those are considered the lawful rulers of their respective land, even if some\majority of their people despise them.

And truth be told, you don't get respect and legitimacy by butchering people. You earn their fear, you earn their compliance once you break their spirit. You don't earn respect or legitimacy.


PS. Another thing: I play that many\most of the Talons also don't consider him their king. Their boss, their superior commander... but not king. They would lay their lives at his feet (because of the weird mind-altering rituals and conditioning) but not because he's their king. They are a mercenary force controlling a country, not a national army.

I also don't think that nearby rulers see him as an usurper; they see him as a mercenary and bandit leader that occupies some land and don't pay attention to him. They ignore him whatever he does to attract their attention.
8000-strong invasion? Closing of the borders for a day. Done. Back to my game of chess, it's my move.
That's why I believe it's important for him to keep losing; so that people could keep ignoring him.

TL;DR: I think it's quite clear in the material that people, even those loyal to him or afraid of him, see Drakov as we see modern-day drug cartel barons \ Warlords in lawless lands that control villages through machinegun-bearing trucks. Yes, the local Somali villagers would give to the gang that rode in their village what they want out of fear, but they don't consider them government.
That is the way I see it. At best he "wins" a temporary victory that makes him look more of a fool than ever. For example he might conquer half of Dementlieu before Dominic takes control of the Talons again as the bracers Drakov gave them to ensure loyalty do not work against Dark Lord powers. This time he not only has them turn on their own troops but also go around Dementlieu giving speeches about the stupidity and banality of Drakov. Basically they say he is jumped up mercenary bandit that they obeyed out of fear but is worthy of no respect.
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8804
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by alhoon »

Well, Dominic being Dominic, he wouldn't be too fast with that before directing those Talons to murder some of his opponents. The Brain getting a bit too cocky with the lower strata? Make sure a few dozen talons find their way there and that their orders are to butcher "dock-people" first before their "Reform".
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
brilliantlight
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

alhoon wrote:Well, Dominic being Dominic, he wouldn't be too fast with that before directing those Talons to murder some of his opponents. The Brain getting a bit too cocky with the lower strata? Make sure a few dozen talons find their way there and that their orders are to butcher "dock-people" first before their "Reform".
True enough.
Mistmaster
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by Mistmaster »

My Drakov is a Napoleon with a touch of Stalin in it. He is a practical man who wants results, cursed to never achieve the goals he aims too; He is not a sadistic bastard, but is a firmly believer that things can be resolved with violence; his philosophy is summarized in two lines "A dead man creates no trouble" and "one death is a tragedy a thousand are a statistic!"
User avatar
brilliantlight
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

To add to this I see him as the "Benito Mussolini" of the Mists in a sense. He is seen by outsiders as swaggering, blustering buffoon who has delusions of grandeur . An inept bully whose threats can't really be backed up.

In plays and songs outside of Fakovnia he is always depicted as a backwards, inept homicidal maniac. He is thought of as being a jumped up bandit who has deluded himself in thinking he is king. In Dementlieu he is depicted as an uncouth, jumped up peasant whose idea of good artwork is overdone, tacky, gaudy artwork that anyone even remotely middle class would be embarrassed to have in their home, in Lamordia and Mordent he is depicted as a superstitious bumpkin, in Boca and Richemulot as an inept schemer who couldn't fool a child.

He knows this both because he knows how he would react to someone with such a repeated history of failure and because the Dark Powers constantly make him aware of it through nightmares, having it whispered in his ear with no one around, with intelligence reports which he insists on being accurate. Drakov isn't stupid enough to "kill the messenger". He is mocked as an unsophisticated fool and he knows it. That is a big part of his repeated attempted failures. He thinks the only way to stop the mockery is to succeed in conquering his neighbors, something that is bound to fail.
User avatar
The Lesser Evil
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:17 am

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by The Lesser Evil »

Curses involving unqualified certainties like "nothing", "never", etc. are starting to sound a little bit too definitive to me, as they are both static (which limits what you can do with the story line and minimizes the impact of player intervention), and more to the importance of the Dark Powers, despair inducing. I'd like to think that the Dark Powers would let Drakov have a little victory (in terms of gaining respect) every now and again, but only such it slakes his thirst for true or greater respect that continues to elude him. To put it another way, you can't steal candy from a baby if the baby has no candy to begin with.

We can see such a case with Lamordia. Even with the loss of the Winter War due to Lamordia's sudden climate shifts, Lamordia initiated an alliance that amounted to sending tribute to Falkovnia. Yet because Lamordia's a tiny backwoods place ruled by an aging old man of failing health, any respect that Drakov might've earned is ash in his mouth. I think perhaps even if Drakov might earn the respect of most of the surrounding domains, it might not be enough for him considering they're mostly women and nobility, two groups he finds weak and inferior. His condescension may hurt him almost as much as any bestowed curse does.

We can see this condescension in action with how he respects his children (or rather, that he has none for them.) I see this problem as another layer to his curse in not being able to establish a kingdom where he will be a respected ruler. (Part of being a monarch is siring children and producing a lineage that will last beyond your death.) Here, we see that it's Drakov's own condescension, rather that the condescension of those rulers around him, that is limiting his ability to find a successor. The only one of his progeny he truly respects is
VIEW CONTENT:
Vigo Drakov, whom is not truly even of his blood, but rather of the Gentleman Caller.
Unfortunately for Vlad, he is likely to never know the fact until it's too late and he's about to die.
User avatar
brilliantlight
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

The Lesser Evil wrote:Curses involving unqualified certainties like "nothing", "never", etc. are starting to sound a little bit too definitive to me, as they are both static (which limits what you can do with the story line and minimizes the impact of player intervention), and more to the importance of the Dark Powers, despair inducing. I'd like to think that the Dark Powers would let Drakov have a little victory (in terms of gaining respect) every now and again, but only such it slakes his thirst for true or greater respect that continues to elude him. To put it another way, you can't steal candy from a baby if the baby has no candy to begin with.

We can see such a case with Lamordia. Even with the loss of the Winter War due to Lamordia's sudden climate shifts, Lamordia initiated an alliance that amounted to sending tribute to Falkovnia. Yet because Lamordia's a tiny backwoods place ruled by an aging old man of failing health, any respect that Drakov might've earned is ash in his mouth. I think perhaps even if Drakov might earn the respect of most of the surrounding domains, it might not be enough for him considering they're mostly women and nobility, two groups he finds weak and inferior. His condescension may hurt him almost as much as any bestowed curse does.

We can see this condescension in action with how he respects his children (or rather, that he has none for them.) I see this problem as another layer to his curse in not being able to establish a kingdom where he will be a respected ruler. (Part of being a monarch is siring children and producing a lineage that will last beyond your death.) Here, we see that it's Drakov's own condescension, rather that the condescension of those rulers around him, that is limiting his ability to find a successor. The only one of his progeny he truly respects is
VIEW CONTENT:
Vigo Drakov, whom is not truly even of his blood, but rather of the Gentleman Caller.
Unfortunately for Vlad, he is likely to never know the fact until it's too late and he's about to die.
I see fleeting , temporary victories as fine like the Dementlieu "victory" above. That is enough to whet his appetite before failing and making him look like more of a fool than ever.

He might conquer a good part of Lamordoria as Adam lets him before hearing (whether true or not) that Drakov is planning to kidnap Modenheim and take him to Falkovnia to compel him to use his "mad science" to help Falkovnia. Adam then closes the borders and attacks alongside his fellow flesh golems and wipe out the Falkovnian Army.

He invades a good part of Borca before Ivana seduces a few high Falkovnia officers while in disguise and poisons them with a touch. His army falls apart in a confused mass as his officers are now dead.

Herself wipes out only 90-99% of his troops on the border so they go a ways into her domain where they are wiped out by overwhelming numbers of militia. She does this so she can have "heroic tales" of the valor of her people by blowing the battles out of proportion. Instead of having 100 Falkovnian soldiers being killed by 1000 militia there are at least 2000 Falkovnian soldiers.
Mistmaster
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by Mistmaster »

Personally I see things differently; Drakov is feared and respected by all is neightbours, because no sensible temporal ruler would want an invasion not even darklords; In my head-canon, no closure is definitive; Cold resistent and appropriately equipped soldiers can force throught the blizzards of Lamordia; His adamantium armed elite knights will defeat the Flesh Golems, but after occupying some border towns, true winter strike and Drakov have to negotiate his retreat, probably obtaining tributes and loot, but no territorial acquisition. Azalin has a bigger army, while less specialized than Drakov's; Drakov could stage an invasion plan which would deal with Azalin magic, and overcome the undead Armies; but that would men to subtract resource from the control of Falkovnia itself; A revolt would strike immediatly after Vlad's great but costly victory against Darkonese's armies, and to repeal it he would have to renounce any major annexations, moving the border northwards of a mere couple of miles. So he is a looming threat, because he actaually can pierce every domain's defences; but his victories never lasts.
User avatar
brilliantlight
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

Mistmaster wrote:Personally I see things differently; Drakov is feared and respected by all is neightbours, because no sensible temporal ruler would want an invasion not even darklords; In my head-canon, no closure is definitive; Cold resistent and appropriately equipped soldiers can force throught the blizzards of Lamordia; His adamantium armed elite knights will defeat the Flesh Golems, but after occupying some border towns, true winter strike and Drakov have to negotiate his retreat, probably obtaining tributes and loot, but no territorial acquisition. Azalin has a bigger army, while less specialized than Drakov's; Drakov could stage an invasion plan which would deal with Azalin magic, and overcome the undead Armies; but that would men to subtract resource from the control of Falkovnia itself; A revolt would strike immediatly after Vlad's great but costly victory against Darkonese's armies, and to repeal it he would have to renounce any major annexations, moving the border northwards of a mere couple of miles. So he is a looming threat, because he actaually can pierce every domain's defences; but his victories never lasts.
How do you defeat an undead army with literally infinite troops whose leader can raise from the dead your own the moment they hit the floor? Are you now hobbling Azalin to make Drakov something he is not? You are hobbling Adam if Drakov is allowed to pull out Admantium armed soldier out of the ether. If you have to jump through such hoops to have him a viable threat maybe you need to put him elsewhere. In any case this would go against his which is at the very least he is unable to get respect.

If you are going to change him that much why call him Drakov? He is a completely different character. It is like if you were running a Star Wars campaign and you have someone named Darth Vader in it but he doesn't go around force choking underlings for their screwups, doesn't need a breathing apparatus and isn't a Sith Lord. He is no longer Darth Vader but someone with the same name.
Mistmaster
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by Mistmaster »

I'm not going to hobble anyone, I'm simply saying that Drakov, as any skilled general, will have his spies gathering intelligence before he attacks, hence the Adamantium weapon for his elite soldiers (Because, in my mind, golem and other automathons are quite common in Lamordia). Border closures in my mind are never absolute, and can be forced throught; Preparation make forcing throught more easy.
About Azalin, the undead are simply not infinite; They are a lot, but not infinite; Expecially if theyr master have been distracted by carefully planned diversions. Because warfare is not only a matter of moving armies; my Drakov simply know this as he were a general of renown before Falkovnia, and I can't see why he should not still be; by the way any DM, in my own hopinion, is allowed to take any character a and turn it on his head if it suits that DM own narration. My Drakov still orders villages burned to the ground and people publically impaled, so I think he is still Drakov, even without the feasting under the impaled and the "General Failure" bit.
I'm sorry if my hopinions upset you, anyway.
User avatar
brilliantlight
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

Mistmaster wrote:I'm not going to hobble anyone, I'm simply saying that Drakov, as any skilled general, will have his spies gathering intelligence before he attacks, hence the Adamantium weapon for his elite soldiers (Because, in my mind, golem and other automathons are quite common in Lamordia). Border closures in my mind are never absolute, and can be forced throught; Preparation make forcing throught more easy.
About Azalin, the undead are simply not infinite; They are a lot, but not infinite; Expecially if theyr master have been distracted by carefully planned diversions. Because warfare is not only a matter of moving armies; my Drakov simply know this as he were a general of renown before Falkovnia, and I can't see why he should not still be; by the way any DM, in my own hopinion, is allowed to take any character a and turn it on his head if it suits that DM own narration. My Drakov still orders villages burned to the ground and people publically impaled, so I think he is still Drakov, even without the feasting under the impaled and the "General Failure" bit.
I'm sorry if my hopinions upset you, anyway.
Adamantium is rare and expensive. A single weapon made of adamantium costs 3000 GP , a long sword costs 15 so for every adamantium armed soldier he is giving up 200 men. So he is going to have maybe one or two squads of these men but not much more as it is too expensive. Nor does adamantium make his men invincible. It merely allows them a +1 to their attack rolls. Each time one of these men die he is losing as much as if he lost 200 and risking strengthening his enemy by them picking it up.


Falkovnia appears 111 after Darkon. Assuming only 2% of the population of Darkon dies every year and that Darkon merely has the same population as Falkovnia Azalin has an undead army that is over 2 times the size of Falkovnia's entire population. His army is going to be massively outnumbered at the get go and every time one of his men hits the floor Azalin gets another recruit so unless Azalin is complete and total idiot he wins pretty lopsidedly. So yes, he is going nowhere.

Drakov is doomed no matter who he invades not only because of direct power intervention but where he was placed. They no longer have to lift a hand to doom him to failure. There is not a single domain that can't crush any invasion attempt he comes up with no matter how brilliant he is. He is in the same position as a brilliant general would be if he were born in Switzerland. Switzerland can defend itself easily enough but all of its neighbors are so much bigger than it that it would be crushed by any of its neighbors if it tried to go conquering its neighbors no matter how brilliant a general.
Last edited by brilliantlight on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mistmaster
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by Mistmaster »

Actually, Falkovnia is no Switzerland, it's the second country of the core for size and population, he can equip an elite force with adamantiun weapons, which allow them to defeat golems realtively easily, I'm talking about Lamordia.
About Darkon, in truth Darkon is the enemy Vlad can't actually think to face against now he would need allies and a lot of planning to launch his Barbarossa attempt. However all the other countries, he can and will get pyrric temporaneous victories on, hence the signing of the 4 towers pact; if they did not feared him, while bother to sign it? That pact is a testament on the fear Falkovnia bequeat on it's neighbours; However, my personal view of Falkovinia and Drakov are better explained by Qtr 22, in Tiamat's Dread Possibility on Falkovnia, which I share.
That said, we can agree on the fact we disagree, and stay serenely on our positions, can't we now, Brilliantlight?
User avatar
The Lesser Evil
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:17 am

Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by The Lesser Evil »

Mistmaster wrote:Personally I see things differently; Drakov is feared and respected by all is neightbours, because no sensible temporal ruler would want an invasion not even darklords; In my head-canon, no closure is definitive; Cold resistent and appropriately equipped soldiers can force throught the blizzards of Lamordia; His adamantium armed elite knights will defeat the Flesh Golems, but after occupying some border towns, true winter strike and Drakov have to negotiate his retreat, probably obtaining tributes and loot, but no territorial acquisition. Azalin has a bigger army, while less specialized than Drakov's; Drakov could stage an invasion plan which would deal with Azalin magic, and overcome the undead Armies; but that would men to subtract resource from the control of Falkovnia itself; A revolt would strike immediatly after Vlad's great but costly victory against Darkonese's armies, and to repeal it he would have to renounce any major annexations, moving the border northwards of a mere couple of miles. So he is a looming threat, because he actaually can pierce every domain's defences; but his victories never lasts.
I think there is perhaps a difference in how we're talking about respect. There is obviously some respect of the fact that he/Falkovnia represents a credible threat against surrounding lands. Yet this kind of respect in fear is very different from the kind of respect Drakov wants, in that he wants to be taken seriously as a legitimate ruler/king and statesman, not just a hopped-up warlord. He doesn't just want fear-respect, he wants admiration-respect. Unfortunately for Drakov, the nature of his political and military machine, and Drakov himself, is to almost entirely rely on fear-respect. In addition, the person he seems to want to prove himself against (Azalin, considering how much he's invaded Darkon and how much Azalin might remind Drakov of his old employers back home) really won't even grant him fear-respect.
Mistmaster wrote:Actually, Falkovnia is no Switzerland, it's the second country of the core for size and population, he can equip an elite force with adamantiun weapons, which allow them to defeat golems realtively easily, I'm talking about Lamordia.
I think your version of Ravenloft is probably pretty different from how Ravenloft is normally imagined. In default Ravenloft, we have no evidence that dread golems of Lamordia are more than isolated freaks. They in no way represent a unified or even reliable defense against an invasion force. Adamantine is a rare and expensive metal in core D&D, let alone Ravenloft.
Post Reply