Another alternate Drakov

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Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

Mistmaster wrote:Actually, Falkovnia is no Switzerland, it's the second country of the core for size and population, he can equip an elite force with adamantiun weapons, which allow them to defeat golems realtively easily, I'm talking about Lamordia.
About Darkon, in truth Darkon is the enemy Vlad can't actually think to face against now he would need allies and a lot of planning to launch his Barbarossa attempt. However all the other countries, he can and will get pyrric temporaneous victories on, hence the signing of the 4 towers pact; if they did not feared him, while bother to sign it? That pact is a testament on the fear Falkovnia bequeat on it's neighbours; However, my personal view of Falkovinia and Drakov are better explained by Qtr 22, in Tiamat's Dread Possibility on Falkovnia, which I share.
That said, we can agree on the fact we disagree, and stay serenely on our positions, can't we now, Brilliantlight?
I realize how big Falkovnia is. My point wasn't its size but the fact that while it can defend itself it can't do long term conquests. He could equip a very small force with adamantium weapons, as he could equip 200 men at the same cost for every man he arms like that . A squad of 10 costs him as much as a regiment with 2,000. A single platoon of 40 costs as much as an entire small division of 8,000 men. Costs do matter.

All admantium weapons do according to the DMG is give a +1 to attack and allow it to bypass the hardness rating of objects. Golems are not objects and don't have a hardness rating. It is good for sundering weapons and will bypass a golem's damage reduction. What it won't bypass is the Golem's AC 23, 12 HD and constriction attacks. This is assuming they don't get killed by musket wielding Lamoridian militia on the way.

I never said he couldn't have temporary , Pyrrhic victories. My examples above are exactly that. What he can't have is long term conquests both because it breaks his curse and the various Dark Lord powers are too much to overcome unless ruled by complete bozos ,which none of them are.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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The lesser Evil I agree on the first thing, and on the second too (my Ravenloft is different), even if in this case I was not saying Lamordia relys on Golems (which could be an idea, thought) but as a reply on a previous discussed idea of Adam leading a group of golems against Falkovnia invading force; Adamantium is expensive but equipping an hundred soldiers (elite force) with it is not outside the possibility of one of the biggest and more populated nation of the core. Personally, finally, I think Drakov craves glory and success more than respect. He wants Falkovnia beeing reckognized as the strongest nation of ther core, but with Darkon there, he'll never get that, if he does not conquer the other meighbours first, but he is doomed to never achieve that kind of victory, so....
Brilliantlight:
My Drakov has guns too, mainly used for siege weapons still, and not as mass producted as in Lamordia, but they can handle fireweapons;
His elite force will be made up by 7 levels-10 levels fighters; they can deal with AC 23, expecially with a whole army of normal weaponed soldiers behind them, including arcane and divine support;
Falkovnia can field several thousands of soldiers, in any given campaign, and the whole country economy is planned to help the war-machine.
His curse is not never conquering, but instaed is never achievieng the victory he wants;for example if he march on Lamordia with the goal of annexing it he might be able, after lot of losses, to keep a city or two on the border, which is 2% of what he wished for.
I envision Drakov this way because I want even Darklords to fear him, even if his curse prevent him for conquering half of the core, it doesn't mean Falkovnia should not be a feared nation, core-wilde.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by ewancummins »

There is a canonical organization of flesh golems in Lamordia. Adam's Children.
Forbidden Lore, Cryptic Allegiances booklet page 20 (I think that is the right page. Looked page number up on line. But I am dead certain it is the right source.)
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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Mistmaster wrote:The lesser Evil I agree on the first thing, and on the second too (my Ravenloft is different), even if in this case I was not saying Lamordia relys on Golems (which could be an idea, thought) but as a reply on a previous discussed idea of Adam leading a group of golems against Falkovnia invading force; Adamantium is expensive but equipping an hundred soldiers (elite force) with it is not outside the possibility of one of the biggest and more populated nation of the core. Personally, finally, I think Drakov craves glory and success more than respect. He wants Falkovnia beeing reckognized as the strongest nation of ther core, but with Darkon there, he'll never get that, if he does not conquer the other meighbours first, but he is doomed to never achieve that kind of victory, so....
Brilliantlight:
My Drakov has guns too, mainly used for siege weapons still, and not as mass producted as in Lamordia, but they can handle fireweapons;
His elite force will be made up by 7 levels-10 levels fighters; they can deal with AC 23, expecially with a whole army of normal weaponed soldiers behind them, including arcane and divine support;
Falkovnia can field several thousands of soldiers, in any given campaign, and the whole country economy is planned to help the war-machine.
His curse is not never conquering, but instaed is never achievieng the victory he wants;for example if he march on Lamordia with the goal of annexing it he might be able, after lot of losses, to keep a city or two on the border, which is 2% of what he wished for.
I envision Drakov this way because I want even Darklords to fear him, even if his curse prevent him for conquering half of the core, it doesn't mean Falkovnia should not be a feared nation, core-wilde.
For the price of arming 100 adamanite soldiers (assuming that there even is that much admantine in RL , which I doubt) he could field an entire small corps of 20,000, more if the price adamantine soars which it should. At this rate he won't have a huge army but a small one. Training 7-10th level fighters is expensive, training wizards and clerics is even more so. With all these expenses he is not fielding a huge army but a small one.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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brilliantlight wrote:
Mistmaster wrote:The lesser Evil I agree on the first thing, and on the second too (my Ravenloft is different), even if in this case I was not saying Lamordia relys on Golems (which could be an idea, thought) but as a reply on a previous discussed idea of Adam leading a group of golems against Falkovnia invading force; Adamantium is expensive but equipping an hundred soldiers (elite force) with it is not outside the possibility of one of the biggest and more populated nation of the core. Personally, finally, I think Drakov craves glory and success more than respect. He wants Falkovnia beeing reckognized as the strongest nation of ther core, but with Darkon there, he'll never get that, if he does not conquer the other meighbours first, but he is doomed to never achieve that kind of victory, so....
Brilliantlight:
My Drakov has guns too, mainly used for siege weapons still, and not as mass producted as in Lamordia, but they can handle fireweapons;
His elite force will be made up by 7 levels-10 levels fighters; they can deal with AC 23, expecially with a whole army of normal weaponed soldiers behind them, including arcane and divine support;
Falkovnia can field several thousands of soldiers, in any given campaign, and the whole country economy is planned to help the war-machine.
His curse is not never conquering, but instaed is never achievieng the victory he wants;for example if he march on Lamordia with the goal of annexing it he might be able, after lot of losses, to keep a city or two on the border, which is 2% of what he wished for.
I envision Drakov this way because I want even Darklords to fear him, even if his curse prevent him for conquering half of the core, it doesn't mean Falkovnia should not be a feared nation, core-wilde.
For the price of arming 100 adamanite soldiers (assuming that there even is that much admantine in RL , which I doubt) he could field an entire small corps of 20,000, more if the price adamantine soars which it should. At this rate he won't have a huge army but a small one. Training 7-10th level fighters is expensive, training wizards and clerics is even more so. With all these expenses he is not fielding a huge army but a small one.
I don't have entire Falkovnian corps equipped with adamantine weapons.

But I don't use legions of wereats in Richemulot, either. ;)

These questions of logistics, economics, frequency of higher level characters, magic, etc are hard to answer outside the context of a given campaign. Published sources vary a lot; shrinking and growing mapscale and population, for example.

I do note that the Black Box lists several domains with greater than first level fighters (or NPCs of other classes) as militia or minions, and Falkovnia stands out in that regard.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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ewancummins wrote:
brilliantlight wrote:
Mistmaster wrote:The lesser Evil I agree on the first thing, and on the second too (my Ravenloft is different), even if in this case I was not saying Lamordia relys on Golems (which could be an idea, thought) but as a reply on a previous discussed idea of Adam leading a group of golems against Falkovnia invading force; Adamantium is expensive but equipping an hundred soldiers (elite force) with it is not outside the possibility of one of the biggest and more populated nation of the core. Personally, finally, I think Drakov craves glory and success more than respect. He wants Falkovnia beeing reckognized as the strongest nation of ther core, but with Darkon there, he'll never get that, if he does not conquer the other meighbours first, but he is doomed to never achieve that kind of victory, so....
Brilliantlight:
My Drakov has guns too, mainly used for siege weapons still, and not as mass producted as in Lamordia, but they can handle fireweapons;
His elite force will be made up by 7 levels-10 levels fighters; they can deal with AC 23, expecially with a whole army of normal weaponed soldiers behind them, including arcane and divine support;
Falkovnia can field several thousands of soldiers, in any given campaign, and the whole country economy is planned to help the war-machine.
His curse is not never conquering, but instaed is never achievieng the victory he wants;for example if he march on Lamordia with the goal of annexing it he might be able, after lot of losses, to keep a city or two on the border, which is 2% of what he wished for.
I envision Drakov this way because I want even Darklords to fear him, even if his curse prevent him for conquering half of the core, it doesn't mean Falkovnia should not be a feared nation, core-wilde.
For the price of arming 100 adamanite soldiers (assuming that there even is that much admantine in RL , which I doubt) he could field an entire small corps of 20,000, more if the price adamantine soars which it should. At this rate he won't have a huge army but a small one. Training 7-10th level fighters is expensive, training wizards and clerics is even more so. With all these expenses he is not fielding a huge army but a small one.
I don't have entire Falkovnian corps equipped with adamantine weapons.

But I don't use legions of wereats in Richemulot, either. ;)

These questions of logistics, economics, frequency of higher level characters, magic, etc are hard to answer outside the context of a given campaign. Published sources vary a lot; shrinking and growing mapscale and population, for example.

I do note that the Black Box lists several domains with greater than first level fighters (or NPCs of other classes) as militia or minions, and Falkovnia stands out in that regard.
You misunderstand me, what I mean is that with the 100 admantine company he says Drakov has he could field an entire small corps of 20,000 men armed with ordinary weapons. 7th-10th level soldiers take time and money to train, while wizards and clerics take even more time and money to train. Drakov can't have a huge elite army. He can have a huge army or an elite small army but he can't have both. At most he has a few elite units here and there.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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In my take on Ravenloft , no one has a huge elite army.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

Post by brilliantlight »

ewancummins wrote:In my take on Ravenloft , no one has a huge elite army.

True enough, including Drakov. It is a matter of cost. He can afford a huge army or he can afford an elite army. He can't have both.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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100 men are an elite unit, indeed.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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Mistmaster wrote:100 men are an elite unit, indeed.
That cost as much as 20,000 men. Your 7th-10th level men are also an elite unit even with 1/2 standard NPC gear for those levels you are talking 3,600-8,000 GP each. Which means everyone of those you have costs you about 250-400 men armed with longswords or studded leather and mace. A squad of those are going to cost you a regiment. It makes far more sense for you to have masses of 1st level fighters with 2nd or 3rd level Sargent with officers being of somewhat higher level.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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With mass production, and forced labor, prices must be lowered at least ten times; Thus an elite force is manageable; a mass of low level warriors destined to be slaughtered is useless against powerfull elit forces, without at least one elite unit.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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Mistmaster wrote:With mass production, and forced labor, prices must be lowered at least ten times; Thus an elite force is manageable; a mass of low level warriors destined to be slaughtered is useless against powerfull elit forces, without at least one elite unit.
I feel you're making assumptions that are difficult to establish as being valid/proven anywhere else in the setting. Do we have any proof that Mass Production can be just that effective in a society that has yet to reach the industrial revolution? Likewise, historically Forced Labor is the 100% LAST THING you want to in any way be associated with your most important elite soldier's weapons. You can coerce people to work, but you can not coerce them to work well. Consider how many acts of sabotage were committed against the German War Machine by the people forced to work for it. Vlad's army is probably no better served by its own slave labor...

In reality, all purely martial forces without mystical backup are doomed to be crushed under the arcane might of those who go into war with magical backup in a D&D setting as characters reach higher levels.

At least this is an unquestioned truth in 3.5 edition D&D, I'm not sure if it is as bad in the current edition, but one of you guys can fill me in.

If you accept that Vlad is willing to go to war without direct magical support (and I mean people who toss fireballs/create erathquakes not just magical swords) then you can not make a reasonable argument that he is a canny or brilliant general, because he has a blindspot a mile wide.

If you say that Vlad is willing to integrate magical power directly into his army then (I feel) you've remove one of the core features of his character.


There is a famous saying... that has been said by so many different people that it is hard to pin down who came up with it first.

Beginners study tactics, veterans study strategy, experts study logistics.

Vlad Drakov was a superb leader of a small mercenary band who focused on small unit tactics. Whatever power he wields in Ravenloft, that's has never changed.

His failure to properly supply his forces with food for the invasion of G'Henna is the perfect example of his refusal to take an interest in the "book keeping" aspects of war (the kinds of war which are more Athena than Ares) which are in many ways more important than actual skill on the battlefield.

Vlad still thinks in term of small unit tactics, and has no idea how to effectively run a country/lead an entire army invading another nation. Vlad has excellent tactics, but as soon as you move to the bigger picture, he becomes a putz because of his lack of knowledge of how Ravenloft works, and his refusal to realize how warfare is inevitably going to end up working in a D&D setting.

All things considered, an army is a crude and awkward crude tool for regime change in a world with magic and D&D style character levels anyway. Look at I Strhad the War Against Azalin, the entire war stops before it could start because of Strhad's clever use of magic to mind control Azalin's general and then have said general lead Azalin's other military leaders into a trap and slaughter them, leaving the army with a utterly shattered chain in command to mill around in confusion before Azalin called the invasion on.


The version of Vlad Drakov I like best is all the nasty racial hatred of Hitler, combined with the a military no more threatening (to those outside his borders) than that of Mussolini.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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Mistmaster wrote:With mass production, and forced labor, prices must be lowered at least ten times; Thus an elite force is manageable; a mass of low level warriors destined to be slaughtered is useless against powerfull elit forces, without at least one elite unit.
Ten times? Are you handing him 19th and 20th century mass production techniques along with everything else? Slave labor might be good enough to produce mundane armor, maybe but magical items? Do you want to make sure that the items are cursed?

Also considering magical items cost XP you can't make too many of them before your wizards are too low a level to make them. There goes your arcane and divine support.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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Drakov has a Ministry of Arcane, and that is canon; The Tower Radiant means arcanists; I play Pathfinder, no XP needed for magic items; My Drakov has also a local branch of the Lawgiver faith which act as state sanctioned priests.
So, he has the resource of mystical power;
My Falkovnia has XVIII Century developement, so no mass production on a Fordian scale, but on lesser scale (of course, no magical items).
The Lesser Evil, as I told you my Drakov is a great general who thinks to logistics too; In my own hopinion, what makes my Drakov interesting is that he is very good in what he does, and in spite of that he never get what he wants. That, in my own hopinion is a curse more interesting that being a simple brutal warlord locked beetwen lands he can't conquer because theyr darklords can all overpower him.
However, I insist, Neo-Tiamat described this take on Drakov and Falkovnia very well, I suggest you go and read his article on Qtr 22. That is basically my take on Drakov and on Falkovnia; development, technological level, relashionships, army, I base my Falkovnia and my Drakov on that Falkovnia and of that Drakov. Is not canon, but it suits me more.
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Re: Another alternate Drakov

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jamesfirecat wrote:
Mistmaster wrote:With mass production, and forced labor, prices must be lowered at least ten times; Thus an elite force is manageable; a mass of low level warriors destined to be slaughtered is useless against powerfull elit forces, without at least one elite unit.
I feel you're making assumptions that are difficult to establish as being valid/proven anywhere else in the setting. Do we have any proof that Mass Production can be just that effective in a society that has yet to reach the industrial revolution? Likewise, historically Forced Labor is the 100% LAST THING you want to in any way be associated with your most important elite soldier's weapons. You can coerce people to work, but you can not coerce them to work well. Consider how many acts of sabotage were committed against the German War Machine by the people forced to work for it. Vlad's army is probably no better served by its own slave labor...

In reality, all purely martial forces without mystical backup are doomed to be crushed under the arcane might of those who go into war with magical backup in a D&D setting as characters reach higher levels.

At least this is an unquestioned truth in 3.5 edition D&D, I'm not sure if it is as bad in the current edition, but one of you guys can fill me in.

If you accept that Vlad is willing to go to war without direct magical support (and I mean people who toss fireballs/create erathquakes not just magical swords) then you can not make a reasonable argument that he is a canny or brilliant general, because he has a blindspot a mile wide.

If you say that Vlad is willing to integrate magical power directly into his army then (I feel) you've remove one of the core features of his character.


There is a famous saying... that has been said by so many different people that it is hard to pin down who came up with it first.

Beginners study tactics, veterans study strategy, experts study logistics.

Vlad Drakov was a superb leader of a small mercenary band who focused on small unit tactics. Whatever power he wields in Ravenloft, that's has never changed.

His failure to properly supply his forces with food for the invasion of G'Henna is the perfect example of his refusal to take an interest in the "book keeping" aspects of war (the kinds of war which are more Athena than Ares) which are in many ways more important than actual skill on the battlefield.

Vlad still thinks in term of small unit tactics, and has no idea how to effectively run a country/lead an entire army invading another nation. Vlad has excellent tactics, but as soon as you move to the bigger picture, he becomes a putz because of his lack of knowledge of how Ravenloft works, and his refusal to realize how warfare is inevitably going to end up working in a D&D setting.

All things considered, an army is a crude and awkward crude tool for regime change in a world with magic and D&D style character levels anyway. Look at I Strhad the War Against Azalin, the entire war stops before it could start because of Strhad's clever use of magic to mind control Azalin's general and then have said general lead Azalin's other military leaders into a trap and slaughter them, leaving the army with a utterly shattered chain in command to mill around in confusion before Azalin called the invasion on.


The version of Vlad Drakov I like best is all the nasty racial hatred of Hitler, combined with the a military no more threatening (to those outside his borders) than that of Mussolini.
This is how I see him. Even without the "Ravenloft Curse" he is a small time operator. Nothing in his background shows him to be competent in large scale wars. He was a mercenary commander who led a small but useful band of soldiers. After all why didn't he conquer his own small kingdom if he was so good? The fact is he never commanded enough troops to do so and was hired by those willing to "look the other way" when he employed his brutal tactics but would never be seen in the same room with him in a social situation. That is what grates him. He never had to learn much about logistics because he would simply raid in short term contracts or be supplied by his employer during long sieges. He probably knows little or nothing about strategy as well as he never had to. He is basically a gifted captain who never commanded anything more than a company , or at most, a regiment . He never saw the "big picture" because he never had to and that carried into his rule in Ravenloft.
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