Another alternate Drakov

[ewancummins]

Drakov is not a Falkovnian by birth or breeding,

He's a Thenolite.
His kingdom hired bakali mercs on a pretty regular basis. There's a good chance he has seen minortaurs and possibly elves in battle.
Since the Black Box nowhere describes him as despising nonhumans, it seems to me that to assume "fantastic racism" as the reason why halfhumans are enslaved by his regime is to imagination read into the text. Which is what we do, as DMs and players.
Now, if you like to make fantastic racism his attitude, cool. Like any choice you make, it is valid in your game. I can see where you get it from your reading of the material. More importantly , if it works for you, you should use it without worrying what other DMs think.


But I interpret his efforts to encourage interbreeding , over the objections of the people, as arising from motives quite different from "fantastic racism." Breeding out the taint is propaganda to try to get people to accept the repellent notion of mixing with elves, dwarves, etc.
He sees useful, good, and superior qualities in some nonhuman/demihuman races.
He wants these beings for servants.

Half-elf janisarries?

[ewancummins]

I do think Lesser Evil makes a good argument for an antimage bias, from the Black Box.

It seems the big differences in how we see Drakov center on his personality.

I think he has a number of admirable qualities.

I also read him in a more pragmatic light. No special case of fantastic racism. He wants semihuman soldiers for special tasks. The prejudices of his serfs and footsoldiers are those of people from Ravenloft. He's actually rather more tolerant of nonhumans than the typical Falkovnian.

[Mistmaster]

The problem I have with it is that it he changed Drakov so much he isn't Drakov. He is merely a mercenary with the same name. It is like taking away Darth Vader's tendency to kill people who fail him, his hatred of the Jedi and his skill with a lightsaber. He is no longer Darth Vader but someone with the same name.

It's legitimate to think this; he is not the Drakov of canon sources, I agree; It's another Drakov, one who suits me better. He is still a military dictator obsessed with war and who uses brutal tacticts to get his goals, however; only he is now a more complex character, and a force to be reckoned with even outside his own nation, thanks to the different interpretation of his curse.

[jamesfirecat]

Drakov is not a Falkovnian by birth or breeding,

He's a Thenolite.
His kingdom hired bakali mercs on a pretty regular basis. There's a good chance he has seen minortaurs and possibly elves in battle.
Since the Black Box nowhere describes him as despising nonhumans, it seems to me that to assume "fantastic racism" as the reason why halfhumans are enslaved by his regime is to imagination read into the text. Which is what we do, as DMs and players.
Now, if you like to make fantastic racism his attitude, cool. Like any choice you make, it is valid in your game. I can see where you get it from your reading of the material. More importantly , if it works for you, you should use it without worrying what other DMs think.


But I interpret his efforts to encourage interbreeding , over the objections of the people, as arising from motives quite different from "fantastic racism." Breeding out the taint is propaganda to try to get people to accept the repellent notion of mixing with elves, dwarves, etc.
He sees useful, good, and superior qualities in some nonhuman/demihuman races.
He wants these beings for servants.

Half-elf janisarries?

If non-humans are property of the state, because they're not human... that's pretty clearly racist or at least speciesist which is the D&D equivalent.

Vlad himself may not be racist /speciesist, but he implements a policy that is clearly racist speciesist in nature, and through that policy forces who knows how many (hundreds, possibly thousands) of slaves to work themselves to death.

If he's not racist/speciesist, he clearly has no problem establishing racist/speciesist that were not in place before he took over. At this point we are reaching "Not Racist but #1 with Racists" territory, and if Vlad isn't actively racist/speciesist he is so hate filled/determined to gain control that he'd love to turn everyone into his own powerless slave, but he's not quite strong enough to do it even in Falkovnia...

It is worth noting that in no other nation in the Core to do we see a level of slavery/rights be as starkly divided based on what race/species a person is as they are in Falkovnia (only possible exception is elves being mistaken for Fey in Tepest but that is another entire kettle of fish), so there is clearly "something" going on there that is worse than even the standards set by other domains of Ravenloft.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” ~Maya Angelou

[ewancummins]

I think you must be using a different definition of racism than the one I know.

[ewancummins]

Not sure what Maya Angelou has to do with this. I have the sneaking suspicion you are flirting with inserting your real world political ideas into the fantasy game discussion. Which, as I recall, is why you were on my blocked list...

[ewancummins]

Or maybe that was just Lesser Evil?

You aren't blocked now.

Anyway, let's leave 'racism' out of this. We are not talking about the real world, or social attitudes and ideology in it.
We are discussing Ravenloft and D&D.

Believing that differing game races are different, and in various ways superior or inferior, is not a question of prejudiced attitudes. It's acknowledging game world facts. Dwarves really are superior miners.
Some races really are less intelligent than others. Some are so powerful as individuals that in 3E they get level adjustments.


And beyond that, the Falkovnian folk prejudice against mixing with demi humans seems not so unusual in Ravenloft.
Do you think most human populations in Ravenloft, outside Darkon and any humans that might live in Sithicus, really mix much with nonhumans?
Or even regard nonhumans as socially acceptable?
It seems as if demihumans being seen as shifty, freakish, fairy-touched, etc is a not uncommon attitude in much of Ravenloft.

How many domains even have substantial demihuman populations?

(It seems as if the 3E sources deviate from other sources by adding more demihumans to some domains.)

[ewancummins]

I'd note that the Nova Vaasan religion (in 3E) treats demihumans as accursed freaks, Barovians oppress Gundarakites (from DoD hardback onward), the poor of Borca are pretty much debt slaves, etc.
The Dukkar hates the Vistani and violently persecutes them, yes?

Before he got whacked/deposed, Duke Gundar laid a heavy tax on girls (which may not have had that much to do with his attitudes toward females, admittedly. It could just have been a way to milk his peasants).

There's plenty of injustice and oppression to go around in Ravenloft, and a lot of it indeed has to do with conditions of birth or belonging to certain groups.

The cruelty and oppression is more naked and brutal in Falkovnia than in a number of other places. But it seems doled out pretty liberally, to the poor, weak, and powerless. Who knows, maybe being a state halfman slave isn't actually as bad as being an impoverished civilian? It probably beats being one of those crippled beggars in Lekar.

EDIT

Where do the sources say Drakov works the demi human slaves to death?
Is that canon, or just your take on it?

[jamesfirecat]

EDIT

Where do the sources say Drakov works the demi human slaves to death?
Is that canon, or just your take on it?

From Death Unchained page 10

One section of the wall has a large gap which is being repaired by three emaciated figures-an elf and two dwarves. They are shackled together and are lifting a heavy stone block. As it is set in place, the elf collapses and the dwarves stop to help him up. The six soldiers guarding them immediately begin to curse and kick the prisoners. The beating is as savage as it is brief-after a second or two, all three lie still. “We need a fresh work crew,” one of the guards tells the others. “Bring out another brace of slaves.”


For Still Further Clarification From Gazeeteer 2 Page 102

"The labor [that nonhuman slaves are subjected to] is back-breaking, exhausting, and often lethal. The taskmasters starve, whip, and beat nonhuman slaves with calculated regularity thereby keeping the efficiency of work and the fear among slaves to a maximum."


The 3rd edition is of course more obvious about it... but the Second Edition still two prisoners being beaten until they are "still" and unable to work any more, for the crime of trying to help one of their fellow prisoners who was starting to break under the strain....

[ewancummins]

EDIT

Where do the sources say Drakov works the demi human slaves to death?
Is that canon, or just your take on it?

From Death Unchained page 10

One section of the wall has a large gap which is being repaired by three emaciated figures-an elf and two dwarves. They are shackled together and are lifting a heavy stone block. As it is set in place, the elf collapses and the dwarves stop to help him up. The six soldiers guarding them immediately begin to curse and kick the prisoners. The beating is as savage as it is brief-after a second or two, all three lie still. “We need a fresh work crew,” one of the guards tells the others. “Bring out another brace of slaves.”

Brutal.

I have never seen that module.

But I agree with your interpretation of it, based on that passage.

[ewancummins]

Death Unchained isn't the Black Box, of course.
It's presentation of Falkovnia could be seen as another step in the evolution of Drakov.

A number of lords and domains either shift a bit over time, or start off a bit fuzzy and end up much more sharply defined.

For me, being familiar with the Black Box, Red Box, and Domains of Dread hardback--but having mostly skipped the 2E modules--Drakov was fairly consistent in 2E.

Then, in 3E, he becomes the 'Kingfuhrer.' Pretty...erm....loaded title.


The Nazi-Soviet-Falkovnia stuff certainly is an interesting take on the domain. I can see how it flows from earlier sources Still, but for me it was a bit jarring. Maybe it's just that title?

It also seems to me that 3E tended to increase the numbers of demihumans and spellcasters in a number of domains. And DoD increased the numbers of guns, bigtime, which 3E continued with the CL system.
Tech gap appeared and widened.

[ewancummins]

I'm writing now without the BB in front of me.

What do we know about him from reading the source?

Drakov:


A Thenolite mercenary captain

Clever

Brutal

Ambitious

Likes to impale people.

Most of all, wants to be a king and be treated as one, respected and feared, accepted other rulers as as peer. It is not about respect from the commoners.

Mistrusts sorcerers.

Encouraged demihumans and humans to interbreed, over the objections of his conquered subjects. Enslaves halfbreeds and uses a line about breeding out the taint, but actual attitudes about demihumanity remain murky or just never stated.

No code of chivalry or honorable conduct, a ruthless pragmatist in military matters.

Loves his hawks.

Does not yet understand the nature of his imprisonment.

Other darklords do not fear him.
No word on withered that holds true for their people...

[jamesfirecat]

Death Unchained isn't the Black Box, of course.
It's presentation of Falkovnia could be seen as another step in the evolution of Drakov.

A number of lords and domains either shift a bit over time, or start off a bit fuzzy and end up much more sharply defined.

For me, being familiar with the Black Box, Red Box, and Domains of Dread hardback--but having mostly skipped the 2E modules--Drakov was fairly consistent in 2E.

Then, in 3E, he becomes the 'Kingfuhrer.' Pretty...erm....loaded title.


The Nazi-Soviet-Falkovnia stuff certainly is an interesting take on the domain. I can see how it flows from earlier sources Still, but for me it was a bit jarring. Maybe it's just that title?

It also seems to me that 3E tended to increase the numbers of demihumans and spellcasters in a number of domains. And DoD increased the numbers of guns, bigtime, which 3E continued with the CL system.
Tech gap appeared and widened.

I suppose the great shame/problem is that unlike Barovia, Darkon, Richemulot, Nova Vaasa (though that one would later be retconned to the Mists and back) there is no Ravenloft novel that take place in Falkovnia (that I know of if you/someone else knows of one (is there one in the Tales of Ravenloft book?) get in touch with me) and thus could provide us with some interesting In Universe look at Falkovnia before it'd made its transition to 3rd edition and Vlad had caught the Fuhrer Fever.


The other real shame for Falkovnia is that it (as far as I know) has never shared a direct border with Sithicus... honestly Vlad being from Krynn has always felt like "so what" to me. There's nothing especially Krynnish about his backstory or his style of rulership (unless it is the reason why he hates Dwarfs and Elves enough to enslave them) to my eyes and it'd be interesting to see his interactions with Soth.

Is Soth everything Vlad wants to be, given that he was a warrior of incredible strength that gained the respect and actual fear of even powerful rulers like Ariakas, or would Vlad mock Soth because he was born into power (he was/is nobility) and Soth still clinging to a twisted code of honor which Vlad would obviously see as foolishness/weakness?

If nothing else, if Vlad was born any point between the cataclysm and the War of the Lance, Vlad could have at least heard rumors of who Soth was, and if he was alive for the War of the Lance, then he might have heard/seen more than that...

[The Lesser Evil]

Anyway, good point on the defeats.


Weaker point on "bully."
Unless most darklords who rule domains are "bullies."

Rule by fear is pretty common for darklords who are also political leaders. The Devil Strahd.
Azalin's let them hate so long as they fear attitude, and his use of the Katgat.

I disagree entirely with your argument about chattel. I mentioned that. What does enslaving halfbreeds or any demihumans necessarilly have to do with racism on Drakov's part? It could be entirely pragmatic. maybe he wants troops with infravision, superior mining skills, etc. It may be demihuman advantages and superior traits he is after. He would only be racist if he thought they were inferior to humans.
(If that word even applies to different species, which I think is a stretch.)

I will point out I used "racist" because you introduced the word into the discussion first. I'm fine with using the terms bigotry, prejudice, and discrimination if that would suit the conversation better.

The word "chattel" is straight from the book.

Falkovnia is no place for demihumans. Drakov has declared them state property, and en- slaves them like chattel. He encourages intermarriage, but the folk forbid it. Children with only one human parent are claimed by the state at birth. p. 70

Falkovnia is hell for almost everybody. That the text specifically points out it's even more horrific for nonhumans does not make me think he has some sort of enlightened attitude regarding them as equal beings to humans. Bigotry is not merely about the ability to do something, it's often also about inherent rights, dignity, and worth.

Treating people like chattel is basically valuing them as no better than animals. We don't see mention of systematic enslavement for humans for any such related tasks they might be better at. So it is at least species/kind oriented discrimination (as in, bigotry put into action), which means there's something inherent about being nonhuman that justifies lowering them (in his mind) even below the peasant class as far as rights and dignity go.

He may not personally have prejudicial (as in, bigotry in ideological form) worldviews going on. He might be tapping into prejudice against nonhumans as justification for slavery. However, considering the Black Box tells us the people have no strength to really rebel against anything he does, the need for external justification to the people seems unlikely.

I disagree about impalements.
Who says he depopulates whole villages? Is that in the text?

I said it's enough numerically to depopulate villages.
Drakov demands at least one execution each night, at the dinner hour. He takes his meal while observing the prisoner’s slow death. On special evenings, as many as 40 people are impaled on a tall, thick stake for his enjoyment. Occasionally he calls in an orchestra to accompany their screams. If Ravenloft is a prison for the damned, few deserve to be here more than Drakov. - p. 69

How do you know he isn't sending raiding parties to collect foreign prisoners for impalement?

Considering how much the neighbors freak out and give Malocchio heat for going over domain borders to hunt fleeing Vistani, I think Vlad kidnapping domain citizens in mass quantities would get a much bigger reactions if that's something he did.

The impalemnts may also be like the large wolf populations in some rather small domains. If you do the math, it does not add up. That many wolves would need much more territory. Yet there it is.
I suspect you like to justify such anomalies, though. I do.
Depopulation is one way.
I think raids is better, though. It seems more in character. All the more frustrating that he cannot lead the crossborder raids himself!

You're right, it doesn't add up. Nonetheless, you can vary some things with interpretation. The impression I've received from you (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you're arguing the Black Box objectively portrays a less Flanderized, more professional Drakov than later sources. I'm providing counterexamples to demonstrate how that may not be the case.

[The Lesser Evil]

I suppose the great shame/problem is that unlike Barovia, Darkon, Richemulot, Nova Vaasa (though that one would later be retconned to the Mists and back) there is no Ravenloft novel that take place in Falkovnia (that I know of if you/someone else knows of one (is there one in the Tales of Ravenloft book?) get in touch with me) and thus could provide us with some interesting In Universe look at Falkovnia before it'd made its transition to 3rd edition and Vlad had caught the Fuhrer Fever.

There's a story in Tales of Ravenloft called the Forgotten Ones, featuring Ivan Dragonov investigating a series of murders/disappearances and his lycanthropy complicating things. Displayed the domain differently than the later sources did. So did CotN: Ghosts ("Jimmy Upton") and the Dungeon module "Horror's Harvest". Those two portrayed things as less grim/exaggerated from the "brutal military government oppression everywhere!" aspect that other sources monolithically portray Falkovnia as.

The other real shame for Falkovnia is that it (as far as I know) has never shared a direct border with Sithicus... honestly Vlad being from Krynn has always felt like "so what" to me. There's nothing especially Krynnish about his backstory or his style of rulership (unless it is the reason why he hates Dwarfs and Elves enough to enslave them) to my eyes and it'd be interesting to see his interactions with Soth.

Is Soth everything Vlad wants to be, given that he was a warrior of incredible strength that gained the respect and actual fear of even powerful rulers like Ariakas, or would Vlad mock Soth because he was born into power (he was/is nobility) and Soth still clinging to a twisted code of honor which Vlad would obviously see as foolishness/weakness?

If nothing else, if Vlad was born any point between the cataclysm and the War of the Lance, Vlad could have at least heard rumors of who Soth was, and if he was alive for the War of the Lance, then he might have heard/seen more than that...

There's actually a tidbit in Gazetteer IV that we can infer a lot about how Vlad thought about Soth. Basically, when Malocchio sent forces to screw with Soth/"invade" Sithicus, Vlad specifically had his soldiers in Malocchio's employ stay back. "S" concludes this is because he has other plans shaping up in the region. However, considering how rare it is for Vlad to hold back troops, I would conclude he knew Soth's reputation from his home world and knew not to screw with him.