Alignments and gothic Drama?

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Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Nox »

Hi all!

Me and one of my players (the paladin) were talking about his character. We are gonna start a new campaign, he wants to keep his old PC, but we were thinking about a Reboot.

Something very bad happened at the end of the last campaign. The paladin and all the party, plus some soldier and other hireling went in a cript to purify all the evil within it.

Things went bad, and everyone except the paladin died. Paladin menaged to escape, after being witness of every single death. After that event he became an alcholist due to the horrible things he saw down there. This event also shaped his mind and personality.

We were thinking that he might have the mindset of the "cursed to walk in the darkness". To explain what i mean imagine that the PC thinks he is cursed to walk in the darkness, but someone has to. Maybe he thinks that anyone who walk with him is cursed to face an horrible death, sooner or later. He is still a good character, but he would do everything to punish evil and protect innocent, including torturing, murdering, and so on. The basics of the character are still Good.. but this is not lawful. Should he be able to keep the paladin class? By rule i would say no. But how if the player wants to roleplay the character this way?

I find this system of alignment quite limitative in this sense, since Ravenloft is a Setting based on Gothic drama, decay and rising.

Some advices? How would you proceed?
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Joël of the FoS »

As I always say, if it hinders your game, change it.

Go with what is making your game great. Keep him a paladin, with a fragility. Always close to fail, or close to loose his status. The DPs would love to toy with such a PC.
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by ewancummins »

If you are concerned about game mechanics, check out the Gray Guard.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_guard
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Five »

"Cursed to walk in the darkness", yeah?

Something with story and mechanics?

Something gothic?

How about the paladin's alcoholism, due to his personal horrors (external factor, arguably), causes such a rift between he and his church that he is essentially ex-communicated. This should lead him deeper down the road of self-pity/torture/etc. His world is flipped upside-down, the very core of his belief system is rocked, and alcohol is his only coping mechanism, so he becomes an ex-paladin.

However, what if it's only his alcoholism that is keeping him from accessing his divine powers? What if the church is wrong about his falling from grace?

There is a lost text of the paladin's divine master, lost in the mists of time...

Get where I'm going?

The paladin still is a paladin, only his new mindset (the bottle bottom) is keeping him from being what he is/was.

Eventually he will realize he still has access to his divinely-granted gifts...which should lead to him asking more questions. The church, if he should inform them, marks him as a heretic and makes him an enemy (yeah they're close-minded because they are ignorant of the divine's full story), leaving him cursed to walk the darkness alone (new adventuring mates aside): gothic isolation.

Once the text is found and the paladin realizes his spirituality was never really in question (it was reactionary fear), he becomes empowered. Reinvigorated. An ideal that has never been seen before...

This sort of story arc should give your player some options. A change of pace for his character (paladin to fighter say), but with the possibility of returning to that class. It's story-heavy (string it out so that the others get equal spotlight time), and carries themes of falling from grace, isolation, self doubt, redemption, and purity. And it can by-pass any alignment issues you may have because external factors have assumed the alignment shift, not the PC.

Of course murder, torture, and the like is a bit of a hiccup...unless this new text supercedes these evil actions. Me, I'd just try to work with the player and lean him/her off such a drastic change. Anger hell yes. Brutality towards evil beings, why not? Batman the paladin, but draw a line for the player. Let them know that you got something brewing and to have faith in your storytelling abilities. Use pc guilt against the progressive viciousness. Dibilitating guilt if you have to. Paladin is too drunk to hold the knife. Gets the spins and needs to leave the scene/wouldbe victim (an unknowing gift from his god maybe?)...anything to see the PC's story go through.

Sorry if this post seems all crammed...im at work. Shh! Haha
Last edited by Five on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by ewancummins »

Blackguard is also an option.
(One possible fate, if his new attitude eventually leads him deeper down the path of well-intentioned extremism, until he's so far gone he has become evil-aligned)


If this guy is going about torturing and murdering evil doers-- in a setting where detect evil does not work--while hitting the bottle hard...
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by ewancummins »

Bone Knight , a prestige class from Eberron, might be worth looking at.

It's got a pretty specific " bonezzzz r cool" focus that may or may not fit. The character does not have to be evil. And , IIRC, it allows conversion of levels/retention of some abilities,sort of like the Blackguard.

Was that crypt full of skeletons?
:azalin:


Edit

I should note that, if you are using the powers check system, a blackguard is headed for " Creature of Ravenloft" status. Probably the Bone Knight, too, on account of his connection with undead.
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Nox »

Five wrote:"Cursed to walk in the darkness", yeah?

Something with story and mechanics?

Something gothic?

How about the paladin's alcoholism, due to his personal horrors (external factor, arguably), causes such a rift between he and his church that he is essentially ex-communicated. This should lead him deeper down the road of self-pity/torture/etc. His world is flipped upside-down, the very core of his belief system is rocked, and alcohol is his only coping mechanism, so he becomes an ex-paladin.

However, what if it's only his alcoholism that is keeping him from accessing his divine powers? What if the church is wrong about his falling from grace?

There is a lost text of the paladin's divine master, lost in the mists of time...

Get where I'm going?

The paladin still is a paladin, only his new mindset (the bottle bottom) is keeping him from being what he is/was.

Eventually he will realize he still has access to his divinely-granted gifts...which should lead to him asking more questions. The church, if he should inform them, marks him as a heretic and makes him an enemy (yeah they're close-minded because they are ignorant of the divine's full story), leaving him cursed to walk the darkness alone (new adventuring mates aside): gothic isolation.

Once the text is found and the paladin realizes his spirituality was never really in question (it was reactionary fear), he becomes empowered. Reinvigorated. An ideal that has never been seen before...

This sort of story arc should give your player some options. A change of pace for his character (paladin to fighter say), but with the possibility of returning to that class. It's story-heavy (string it out so that the others get equal spotlight time), and carries themes of falling from grace, isolation, self doubt, redemption, and purity. And it can by-pass any alignment issues you may have because external factors have assumed the alignment shift, not the PC.

Sorry if this post seems all crammed...im at work. Shh! Haha
I get where you are going :mrgreen: !
The plot is nice, but there is a problem:
Fact is that actually the Sentire (highest rank priest in the region) is quite close to him, so it wouldnt fit if the church discomunicate him (i just told him that the Sentire himself attended the funeral of his parents, also spending part of the day with him in prayer, mostly because they Sentire SHould be proud of him, since he's one of the few paladin in the land, and he did many good act), in short, I painted this man as good and friendly. Maybe it is a facade? but if this is the case i'm not that good in creating twisted plots, i need some help. How would the PC find out about the falsity of his former superior? What could be the so close-minded vision of this church (ezra, Home faith)? Should I discuss those topics with him or just have him made his choice (to be a fallen paladin, for example, or to be a righteous bastion of justice) and follow the plot without telling him anything?

We as DM know that there is no god in ravenloft. It's very likely that all those divine powers are granted by the dark powers, or the mist himself. My player still think that if they pray some God will listen and maybe will help them. But that's far from the truth... Well.. someone is listening, as we all know...
ewancummins wrote: Bone Knight , a prestige class from Eberron, might be worth looking at.

It's got a pretty specific " bonezzzz r cool" focus that may or may not fit. The character does not have to be evil. And , IIRC, it allows conversion of levels/retention of some abilities,sort of like the Blackguard.

Was that crypt full of skeletons?
:azalin:


Edit

I should note that, if you are using the powers check system, a blackguard is headed for " Creature of Ravenloft" status. Probably the Bone Knight, too, on account of his connection with undead.
The crypt was the "Tomb of Horrors" revised a little. Since we were not able to finish the adventure 'cause some of the players had Issues in Real life, and were forced to leave the campaign, i made them die in traps (they would never come back, so who cares :azalin: ), and encounters. Some of their souls are still trapped in the crypt, and one of the biggest regret of the paladin is that he cannot save at least their soul (So probably they will come back to the Tomb of Horrors at some point to complete the adventure and free their former PC's souls).

yes, some of the enemies were skeletons.

I dont know the bone knight, but i'll take a look at it, if it's nice as you describe it I could actually suggest it to my player. Honestly i never heard anything about "creature of Ravenloft" status. What does it implies? WE play in 3.5 but even if the rule is older i could use it anyway.
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by ewancummins »

Creature of Ravenloft is the stage reached when a character has failed enough powers checks that he is damned to be a villain/monster. At this point, he'd normally become an NPC.
And good luck leaving the Demiplane!
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Five »

[quote="Nox"]
The plot is nice, but there is a problem:
Fact is that actually the Sentire (highest rank priest in the region) is quite close to him, so it wouldnt fit if the church discomunicate him (i just told him that the Sentire himself attended the funeral of his parents, also spending part of the day with him in prayer, mostly because they Sentire SHould be proud of him, since he's one of the few paladin in the land, and he did many good act), in short, I painted this man as good and friendly. Maybe it is a facade[\quote]

Not at all.

The Sentire can still be a good and decent man, a bastion of the faith, and all that jazz. He doesn't need to change a bit...until the new text is recovered and revealed to him.

His hypothetical spiritual ignorance is not malicious. He is the best he can be given his current level of understanding of the doctrines of his faith. No change needs to be made other than his personal/spiritual relationship with the paladin.

With a heavy heart he needs to ex-communicate his friend. With much contemplation...that kind of thing. And the Sentire's anger can still be legit. Faith can often override logic and reason. And arguments don't necessarily carry alignments. That and disappointment can act out in many different ways. The paladin is so rare and his deeds so good that the Sentire's personal dissapointment in the PC temporarliy clouds his spiritual judgement. Everybody makes mistakes, even high priests. He made the right call in ex-communicating the PC given current understanding of religious writ. ..but the wrong call because of a capped spiritual understanding of his god....thus making the paladin returning with the lost text that much more ideal. He is, in essence, a deliverer of Spiritual Awakening to his fellow believers.

Or you can dodge all that and make it so that the Sentire is away when the paladin returns and his replacement makes the call. Again, theology shoots down every argument the Sentire can make when he returns and realizes what happened and maybe is forced to agree: the paladin failed in his vows to the One...?

From a DM perspective you'd be roleplaying alignment change factors but mechanically there is no change because its just character misunderstandings and ignorance. Alcoholism and the Lost Text acts as your smokescreen.

That's how I view it anyway. :)
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Five »

As for me as a DM?

I'd play out the "alignment change" up to the point of shortly after the paladin's realization that he can still access his gifts: the beginning to his road to Redemption.

'd leave the player in the dark. I'd roleplay a torture scene or two. Let him believe he's actually an ex-paladin given to bouts of evil. But deep down I'm chuckling because I know it's all in his head. Yeah, he's that drunk (because he's that distraught over losing his mates) that he's imagining that burst of violence. It's roleplaying roleplaying. He's just destroyed in a crappy room in a crappy inn or out in a piss-stained alley, completely whacked out of his head. Or, giving that drunken hundred yard stare/fantasy reaction to somebody thats rubbing him the wrong way...that sort of thing.

He'll get the chance to piece it all together at a later date, and hopefully with a great sigh of relief!

Yeah, I like to brainmuck some times. Haha But I also like to cater to my players' PC developmental wants. If I can provide a backdoor as a sort of un-do contingency plan then that's just bonus. .:)
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Nox »

Five wrote:As for me as a DM?

I'd play out the "alignment change" up to the point of shortly after the paladin's realization that he can still access his gifts: the beginning to his road to Redemption.

'd leave the player in the dark. I'd roleplay a torture scene or two. Let him believe he's actually an ex-paladin given to bouts of evil. But deep down I'm chuckling because I know it's all in his head. Yeah, he's that drunk (because he's that distraught over losing his mates) that he's imagining that burst of violence. It's roleplaying roleplaying. He's just destroyed in a crappy room in a crappy inn or out in a piss-stained alley, completely whacked out of his head. Or, giving that drunken hundred yard stare/fantasy reaction to somebody thats rubbing him the wrong way...that sort of thing.

He'll get the chance to piece it all together at a later date, and hopefully with a great sigh of relief!

Yeah, I like to brainmuck some times. Haha But I also like to cater to my players' PC developmental wants. If I can provide a backdoor as a sort of un-do contingency plan then that's just bonus. .:)
I'm just curious about this ancient tome. What information would you give to the player when he founds it? What's the big secret inside the tome? How the player comes to understand his status is only in his mind?
ewancummins wrote:Bone Knight , a prestige class from Eberron, might be worth looking at.

It's got a pretty specific " bonezzzz r cool" focus that may or may not fit. The character does not have to be evil. And , IIRC, it allows conversion of levels/retention of some abilities,sort of like the Blackguard.

Was that crypt full of skeletons?
:azalin:


Edit

I should note that, if you are using the powers check system, a blackguard is headed for " Creature of Ravenloft" status. Probably the Bone Knight, too, on account of his connection with undead.
I took a look at the bone knight. It's a nice PrC, but there is one problem. How would people of Ravenloft react to a man who wears bone armor, who ride an undead mount, who raises the deads to fight again? Even if he does it for the good, people will be scared and almost everyone will flee him. Am i wrong? Afaik necromancy is Outlaw in many of the domains, even if it is practiced (i could be wrong though, and if am I let me know).
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by ewancummins »

Bone Knights are probably going to scare a lot of people. It's the undead stuff.


The bone armor doesn't have to look spooky, though.
http://siberiantimes.com/science/casest ... d-in-omsk/


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... 25e380.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... a6dd67.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6GfHQImHHH8/T ... aner47.jpg


Possibly bone
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... 622d8a.jpg





Unless I have forgotten something, the bones need not be human bones.
Whale bone, the bones of cattle, etc could work.

And he could always enamel, paint, or laquer the armor's outer face, no? In any case, I don't think bones are scary. Bone is just bone.
But if the Bone Knight wears armor that looks like this:

http://s174.photobucket.com/user/krysda ... 7.jpg.html

Yeah...

Then he's going to run into trouble. :()



The undead mount is a much bigger potential public relations problem than the armor.
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by ewancummins »

Still, as noted above, a Bone Knight is probably headed for Creature of Ravenloft status. I wouldn't recommend it if you want to run a " good guys" campaign. The class will lead to multiple powers checks.


But bones are cool!

:azalin:


As for the drunken, tormented PC what's wrong with just being an ex-paladin in need of atonement?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

He loses his special abilities if he willingly commits an evil act, switches away from LG alignment, or grossly violates his code.
He cannot advance in level as a paladin.

I'd enforce the rule. The player could freely choose whether his character sought atonement or abandoned his calling as a paladin.

I mentioned some prestige class options for " gray" and '" anti paladin" types because you (the OP) asked for other ideas. But again, if I were running, I'd use the core rules on this one. Paladins stay on the high road or they don't stay paladins very long.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Remember that Elena Faith-hold still thinks she's a paladin, even with her abilities twisted by the DPs (Which she sees as a test from Belenus instead.)

Also consider the Paladins of Freedom, Sluaghter, and Tyranny from Unearthed Arcana, available in the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/class ... lasses.htm

You might use their "twisted" abilities to represent this paladin's slide.
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Re: Alignments and gothic Drama?

Post by Dark Angel »

Nox wrote:Fact is that actually the Sentire (highest rank priest in the region) is quite close to him, so it wouldnt fit if the church discomunicate him (i just told him that the Sentire himself attended the funeral of his parents, also spending part of the day with him in prayer, mostly because they Sentire SHould be proud of him, since he's one of the few paladin in the land, and he did many good act), in short, I painted this man as good and friendly. Maybe it is a facade? but if this is the case i'm not that good in creating twisted plots, i need some help. How would the PC find out about the falsity of his former superior? What could be the so close-minded vision of this church (ezra, Home faith)?
One thing to hold the NPC true to character would be to keep him as he is without any loss of respect or belief of the paladin (I like to have at least one major NPC in all my games that will never betray or deceive the group no matter what, granted they never know this NPC exists or who they are once found). Depending on the faith of the paladin, his obvious changes in behavior and drunkenness may not distance himself from what is essentially a mentor figure (or close to it), but would be frowned upon by other members of the faith. Is there a 'second in command' who wants to run the church his way? Does he see the paladin's relationship to the top dog as a means to make that happen? Not only would you still have the PC betrayed by his church, the paladin may also be forced to make a choice: push the Sentire away or accept his assistance. The Sentire may accept the consequences of his decision (would may leverage him out of the church as well) and the paladin may distance themselves out of friendship. Little twists and turns like that can make a simple situation more complex and political in nature (which I consider a win-win as a sword +5 and the greatest armor class in the game will not stop a (figurative) political assassination).

As far as keeping him a paladin, go for it. The addiction to booze part would cause a loss of abilities and not a fall from grace. This feeds into the eventual return of powers (after reasonable actions were completed) as the fuel of the "heretic paladin deal with the dark powers". Hope some of these suggestions help.
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