(PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by nothri »

You know what this conversation reminds me of? The original conception of the Witch from the Church of Hala. Only those born into their ranks could manifest their powers as Witches or Warlocks.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

In all honesty, since this thread got replied to by Jester, I've actually been contemplating how I might do up an article format for the next QTR to include Haglings in Ravenloft. One of the "so, how do these actually show up in Ravenloft without completely invalidating all of the lore so heavily worked into the setting?" answers that came to me was that they are actually born to witches, Halan and otherwise.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Cole Deschain »

I don't know if I'd give Night Hags in the 'Loft Changeling offspring- and since I'm loathe to make Van Richten totally incorrect, I'd tinker with their conceptual underpinning a bit...

Maybe in the Demiplane, all hag daughters are fated to become Hags unless, say, the Witches of Hala get a hold of them. The potential to become a hag remains (and is a handy default path for failed dark powers checks to lead down) but Hala-mojo can perhaps make the fate an uncertain one.

Something like that.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

Well, the thing is, the entire idea of changelings can actually be traced back to the "Ecology of the Night Hag" that Paizo did for Dragon Magazine; night hags produce what are effectively perfectly ordinary human daughters through their reproductive depredations, and have to deliberately visit them and ritually transform them into new night hags. Some of the finer details are different, but the basic concept is clear enough that I personally feel night haglings are perfectly sensible, Pathfinder saying that Night Hags produce half-fiend offspring be damned.

Anyway, what I had in mind, to accommodate those who don't want to throw out the AD&D module or personally retcon it, was this idea, based on the existant 5e lore for how hags reproduce:

In essence, to create a changeling/hagling, a hag steals and devours a human baby. Its infantile soul is then trapped in her fetid womb, where a week later she gives birth to its reincarnation, now tainted with haggish essence.* Then, she either arranges for it to be found by its parents, or fosters it out. As well as knowing that she can call this hagling to become a new hag should she need one, she can enjoy the misery and torment of its original family, who may put their own child to death because of it's taint.

* To answer the obvious question, "what about male babies?", I planned on presenting several possibilities for DMs to pick from; they just get eaten, they become witchspawn calibans instead, they get reborn as female haglings, or there are male haglings as well.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Cole Deschain »

The whole soul-swapping deal feels like a bit much... and more Grand Guignol than "witchy."

I mean, your article, your call, but it seems like adding an extra step for its own sake.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

It's not "soul swapping" so much as "corrupting". A bit of a clumsy attempt to use the 5e lore for how hags procreate whilst not invalidating the Van Richten's Guide to the Witch - more out of respect for the readers here, who might actually like it, I personally would be fine with throwing out as much of that AD&D lore as I needed to in order to work in the Pathfinder lore.

Though, really, I've never submitted anything to any of the netbooks here and I don't think I'm really worthy of doing so anyway, so that's all hypothetical.

So, anyway, anyone have any critique of my 2nd draft write-up? I'll quote it below to make it easier to find:
5e Hagling Racial Profile, 2nd Draft
Ability Modifier: +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Darkvision 60 feet
Claws: A hagling is automatically proficient with her unarmed strikes, which do 1d4 slashing damage.
Haggish Ancestry: A hagling belongs to the lineage of a particular kind of hag. Choose from the Annis Hag, Green Hag, Sea Hag or Night Hag subraces.

Annis Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Strength
Claws of Iron: An annis hagling does 1d6 slashing damage with her unarmed strikes instead of 1d4.
Hulking Witch: An annis hagling that reaches 3rd level may cast the Enlarge/Reduce spell once per long rest, targeting only herself, and only in its Enlarge format. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for this spell.
Unholy Hide: Once per short rest, an annis hagling may grant herself resistance to nonmagical, non-silvered slashing weapons for 1 minute.

Green Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Wisdom
Mimicry: A green hagling may attempt to mimic the voice of a humanoid or the call of an animal. Listeners can attempt to pierce this deception by making a Wisdom (Insight) check. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + the hagling's Charisma modifier + the hagling's proficiency bonus.
Deceptive Charms: A green hagling knows the Dancing Lights, Minor Illusion and Vicious Mockery cantrips.

Sea Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Constitution
Ocean Born: A sea hagling has a Swim speed of 30 feet and Advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks made to swim under difficult conditions.
Sea Lungs: A sea hagling can breath water and air.
Frightful Glare: The gaze of an angry sea hagling can horrify almost as much as the appearance of her hag mother. Once per short rest, a sea hagling may make a gaze attack against any creature that is within 30 feet; targets must pass a Wisdom check or be Frightened for 1 minute. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + the hagling's Charisma modifier + the hagling's proficiency bonus.

Night Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Intelligence
Somnambulant Charms: A night hagling can cast Sleep as a 1st level spell once per short rest.
Fiendish Resilience: A night hagling has Resistance to Fire and Cold. Once per long rest, a night hagling may grant herself resistance to non-magical, non-silvered bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage for 1 minute.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Buzzclaw »

I'm late to the party but I just wanted to chime in on the subject of PF Changelings/Haglings. A big fluff problem I have with them is that their mothers look like trolls while they look like anime waifs. I think to fit in to Ravenloft there should be some clues to their ancestry in their physical appearance. I would go with the general "beautiful maiden" description but then add a single feature like excessively pointy cheekbones, nose, or chin, unusually sharp teeth, beady eyes, or extremely coarse hair.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

I always figured it was to contrast the two races better - changelings are full of vibrancy and potential, hags are are full of bitterness and decay, changelings are young and beautiful, hags are old and ugly.

But, really, I'm more focused on trying to get the crunch sorted out at this point; any refluffing would only happen if I actually did a QtR article out of this project, and I don't know if I have the qualifications to actually be allowed to submit an entry for that.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Cole Deschain »

Changelings also have clawed fingernails,so they may look like frail pretty things, but they can also ripa face open with a swipe of one hand...
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

So, I know that Ender is still busy with real life, which leaves me pretty out of luck, but I was curious about something.

I really think that "Haglings" are an excellent fit for a Dark Fantasy D&D setting, especially a Gothic Horror one like Ravenloft. The problem is, Haglings are very much a new phenomena, having been created in Pathfinder's Carrion Crown adventurer path, whilst the venerable Van Richten's Guide to the Witch is a comparatively ancient AD&D production. So, naturally, the Ravenloft lore for Haglings is non-existent, because they were invented after Ravenloft stopped being officially supported.

But this topic is making me wonder: how much effort would it actually take to retcon Van Richten's Guide so that hags go from the "barren human woman until 40s, then undergo an automatic transformation into new hags, seduce men for daughters who think they're human, cycle starts again" to Pathfinder's hag & changeling lifecycle? What kind of work and revamping would need to be done in order to make it fit?
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Leliel »

Hell_Born wrote:So, I know that Ender is still busy with real life, which leaves me pretty out of luck, but I was curious about something.

I really think that "Haglings" are an excellent fit for a Dark Fantasy D&D setting, especially a Gothic Horror one like Ravenloft. The problem is, Haglings are very much a new phenomena, having been created in Pathfinder's Carrion Crown adventurer path, whilst the venerable Van Richten's Guide to the Witch is a comparatively ancient AD&D production. So, naturally, the Ravenloft lore for Haglings is non-existent, because they were invented after Ravenloft stopped being officially supported.

But this topic is making me wonder: how much effort would it actually take to retcon Van Richten's Guide so that hags go from the "barren human woman until 40s, then undergo an automatic transformation into new hags, seduce men for daughters who think they're human, cycle starts again" to Pathfinder's hag & changeling lifecycle? What kind of work and revamping would need to be done in order to make it fit?
Actually, not that much. You just add another theme onto hags that fits their "corrupt motherhood" image; the cycle of abuse.

A hagling or her rare brothers (I like to rule there are male changelings, it's just that the hag transformation ritual makes them into different monsters-giantkin or ogre magi, although in Ravenloft they could be the dread trolls mentioned in hidajiremi's Savage World version of Ravenloft) can have the same lesser version of the nasty instincts that drive larval hags away from normal humans, it's just that "puberty" doesn't happen until or unless they submit to the initiation rite that makes them hags. In this case, it's cause and effect that are reversed; haglings become vicious and bitter towards (demi)humanity and that motivates them to seek out the metamorphosis, rather than the other way around. Hags being hags, they do everything in their power to ensure their children become vicious and bitter. Could explain why they hate each other almost as much as they hate everyone else, upon realizing what was done to them. There's a cutoff date, though-40's generally about the age of menopause, and if a changeling grows old (ie, past that) naturally, she becomes not only immune to the rite, but most of her "adult" kind's powers and becomes adept at spotting other changelings she can protect from their biological mothers (age as a source of wisdom rather than death and decay, in storybook logic). That's why hags tend to step up recruitment around that time, and hex their daughters repeatedly to prevent pregnancy, then publicly lie about "inherent sterility" to provide another reason to join up with Team Decrepit And Evil.

As for mortal descendants of changelings, they seem like another type of potential sorcerer-who knows, maybe the Church of Hala was founded by one.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

Hmm... thank you for the thoughts, I'm interested on hearing how people would consider retconning haglings in at the cost of the old Van Richten's Guide to the Witch Lore about hag reproduction.

Something I'd considered was the idea that haglings basically breed true. If they manage to procreate, 2/3rds of the time, it'll be another hagling, or at least a Witchbreed caliban daughter, whilst their sons are always calibans.
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Re: (PF + 5e) "Haglings" in Ravenloft?

Post by Hell_Born »

So, in hopes of attracting attention, I thought I'd give the "Pathfinder exclusive" haglings another shot. Yes, I know, folks are leerier of them, but since nobody's said anything about the actual Ravenloft-compliant draft yet, I figured it was hurting nobody.
Hagling Racial Core (tentative):
Ability Modifier: +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
Vision: Darkvision 60 feet
Claws: A hagling is automatically proficient with her unarmed strikes, which do 1d4 slashing damage.
Haggish Ancestry: A hagling belongs to the lineage of a particular kind of hag.


Blood Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Intelligence
Fireproof: A blood hagling has Resistance to Fire.
Crawling Skin: A blood hagling has Advantage on checks made to physically disguise herself.
Burning Hexcraft: A blood hagling has the following spell-like abilities. A 1st level blood hagling has the Control Flames (Elemental Evil Player's Guide) and Fire Bolt cantrips. At 3rd level, she gains the ability to cast Burning Hands once per short rest as a 1st level spell. At 5th level, she gains the ability to cast Aganazzar's Scorcher (Elemental Evil Player's Guide) once per short rest as a 2nd level spell.


Mute Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Wisdom
Blind: A mute hagling's eyes do not function, leaving them blind, though their mystical heritage enables them to adapt. A mute hagling automatically fails all checks based on sight. However, she has Blindsight 60 feet instead of Darkvision 60 feet. Additionally, she has Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks made using any of her other senses.
Mute: A mute hagling does not have a voice, at least not one that can be heard with the ears. A mute hagling may communicate with a single creature within 30 feet by use of telepathy, but cannot make any verbal sounds.
Thief of Sight: A mute hagling gains two spell-like abilities, each of which that she may use once per short rest, upon reaching third level. She may use Invisibility (self only) and Blindness (as per Blindness/Deafness, but can only inflict the Blind condition), both as 2nd level spells.


Storm Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Dexterity
Stormborn: A storm hagling has Resistance to Lightning and Thunder damage.
Claws of the Storm: A storm hagling inflicts Slashing and Lightning damage with her unarmed strikes.
Windherder: A storm hagling knows the Gust and Thunderclap cantrips as spell-like abilities. Both are found in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.


Winter Hag Ancestry:
Ability Modifier: +1 Constitution
Frostlaced Flesh: A winter hagling has Resistance to cold damage, leaves no tracks in snow, and has Advantage on any checks made to survive in a cold environment.
Breath of Winter: A winter hagling has a breath weapon that she may use once per short rest. This breath weapon is a 15ft cone that inflicts Cold damage and forces those caught within it to make a DC (8 + hagling's Con bonus + hagling's proficiency bonus) Constitution save. Targets that succeed in this save take only half damage. The winter hagling's breath weapon inflicts 2d6 Cold damage, increasing to 3D6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.
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