When did the Carnival first come to RL?

[VikingLegion]

I've checked the Mistipedia entries on Carnival, Isolde, and a few other related links, but they seem to be a bit sparse on info. Does anyone have a BC year in which they first entered? For that matter, is L'Morai an actual Ravenloft domain, or just the prime area that Hermos and Marie first served under the Puppetmaster. I'm unsure if Hermos strangling Marie is the event that triggered their move to the Mists, or if they were in RL that entire time. My memory on all things Carnival is very sketchy, as I read the book years ago and never had any of the official gaming material related to them. I'm looking to work them into a storyline (because who doesn't love a traveling circus of freaks?!?!?) but I have a feeling I'm going to have to do some serious canon-breaking here to insert them in the year I want. Does Isolde take control shortly after the events of the novel Carnival of Fear?

Any info at all would be greatly appreciated.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

I'Morai was a domain, but in not sure if when it was formed. If I were to guess, I'd say pre-735, around 680-690? Long enough for a generation to have been born there at least.

Isolde comes after they've left the domain, which I think is shortly after the Grand Conjunction. I maybe misremembering this, but I'm sure they were traveling for a while without her, but I think she found them in 740?

[steveflam]

Does it mention it in one of the 2nd edition boxes?

[The Lesser Evil]

If you're talking Isolde's Carnival, it's 740 BC. During that year, the Grand Conjunction occured, causing Hermos and company to flee from Darkon to Falkovnia. Big mistake on their part, as they're dead meat until Isolde saves them. After she does, she decides to become their new patron, and a new Carnival is formed. (check Carnival p. 40)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah, 740 is the earliest mention in Mangrum's timeline. That's when Isolde met up with the others. I'd have to check the book if there's any reference to how long either the Troupers or Isolde were wandering separately before that.

[Dark Angel]

Does it mention it in one of the 2nd edition boxes?

Carnival's supplement was one of the last 2nd edition things before the whole thing went 3rd edition (and one of the best things written about the Misty Realm). The earliest mention of Isolde's Carnival is in the Domains of Dread 2nd edition revision. The Red and Black Boxes had nothing and the Carnival of Fear novel was the only other thing prior to that.

[steveflam]

Does it mention it in one of the 2nd edition boxes?

Carnival's supplement was one of the last 2nd edition things before the whole thing went 3rd edition (and one of the best things written about the Misty Realm). The earliest mention of Isolde's Carnival is in the Domains of Dread 2nd edition revision. The Red and Black Boxes had nothing and the Carnival of Fear novel was the only other thing prior to that.

Roger that and thanks

[Boneguard]

I've just finished reading Carnival of Fear (as well as Hermos entry and p. 40 of Carnival Supplement and Hermos entry in Champion of the Mist) and it seems that l'Morai was a city in some unnamed Prime as both Carnival and Champion states that Hermos lead the Freaks away from L'Morai and into the mist emerging in Darkon where they performed. This lead them to Falkovnia and the rest is history.

Although, I willing to admit that l'Morai could have been an undiscovered Micro-Pocket Domain somewhere in the Mist that consisted of the city of l'Morai, the Heath and the Carnival of l'Morai. The Lord could be either the Council, Monsieur Juron Cygne or whoever has the ruby pendant at that moment...or a completely different entity.

[alhoon]

well, since Paridon is a proper domain and not a pocket, I don't see why that city domain couldn't be one too

[Joël of the FoS]

I'm a fan of the puppetmaster and I will likely add him IMC someday.

[The Lesser Evil]

Yeah, 740 is the earliest mention in Mangrum's timeline. That's when Isolde met up with the others. I'd have to check the book if there's any reference to how long either the Troupers or Isolde were wandering separately before that.

For Isolde, I think the best indicator that we have to deduce her time of entry into Ravenloft would be that of the Gentleman Caller's entry. Since Vigo Dracov, one of the GC's children, was born in 705 BC, we can deduce that the GC's point of entry into Ravenloft is at the latest that same year.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

For Isolde, I think the best indicator that we have to deduce her time of entry into Ravenloft would be that of the Gentleman Caller's entry. Since Vigo Dracov, one of the GC's children, was born in 705 BC, we can deduce that the GC's point of entry into Ravenloft is at the latest that same year.

Yeah, but we don't know how long after that she followed him, do we?

[The Lesser Evil]

For Isolde, I think the best indicator that we have to deduce her time of entry into Ravenloft would be that of the Gentleman Caller's entry. Since Vigo Dracov, one of the GC's children, was born in 705 BC, we can deduce that the GC's point of entry into Ravenloft is at the latest that same year.

Yeah, but we don't know how long after that she followed him, do we?

Not totally for sure, no. But we can make deductions based upon the potential canon (Ryan Naylor's comments collected in the "S and Azalin's Plans for Her" document"). Isolde was the original reason for the GC to have entered Ravenloft (in order to capture and ultimately destroy her.) Failing the latter part, the GC's motivation would now be to escape. Since the creation of his progeny was all part of the GC's bid to escape, the birth of one of them would seem to indicate his escape plan was already in motion. This would in turn imply that he had already lured Isolde into the Demiplane of Dread and failed in his plot to destroy her. Therefore, Isolde had already been in the plane for some time prior to 705 BC.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I think most people assume l'Morai was domain, though I can't find concrete evidence of that. (CotM just calls it the "city of l'Morai") I think we have to assume it is, though, otherwise CoF is the only Ravenloft novel that doesn't take place in Ravenloft at all!

DoD says there are no records of Carnival before the GC, so that lines up with them arriving in Darkon in 740 and meeting up with Isolde in Falkovnia soon after.

I'm down with Naylor's idea of the GC using RL as a trap for Isolde, but that doesn't mean he couldn't start fathering children before she gets there. Incubuses are naturally gonna do their thing, you know? His kids might not have started out as a grand plan to get out, or even if they did, he could have started before she got there, knowing the plan would take time to come to fruition.

I mean, it's fine if you want her to arrive soon after he did. But the only reason I'm questioning it is that 35+ years is a long time for her to have been wandering the land unnoticed, right? The Twisting alone would surely have been noted, let alone the acts of good she probably did. Whereas, 35+ years in the celestial realms is a heartbeat. Her superiors could easily have been deliberating that long on whether to let her go or not, then when she finally is given permission, she meets the Carnival soon after arrival, and the rest is history. Seems the best alternative to me, but that's just MHO.

[Joël of the FoS]

I think most people assume l'Morai was domain, though I can't find concrete evidence of that. (CotM just calls it the "city of l'Morai")

It was also identified as a domain on the Kargatane's site, FYI.

I think we have to assume it is, though, otherwise CoF is the only Ravenloft novel that doesn't take place in Ravenloft at all!

Indeed