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Shakin up the core 
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Evil Genius
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Post Re: Shakin up the core
The core 3.X source material says it relates more to the human psyche (as in, how the animal is perceived) rather than any trait of the animal itself.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm

Alignment

Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.


Which may have interesting implications for how lycanthropes relate to humanity as a manifestation of the collective (un)consciousness.


Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:24 pm
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Evil Genius
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Post Re: Shakin up the core
The Lesser Evil wrote:
The core 3.X source material says it relates more to the human psyche (as in, how the animal is perceived) rather than any trait of the animal itself.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm

Alignment

Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.


Which may have interesting implications for how lycanthropes relate to humanity as a manifestation of the collective (un)consciousness.


I can buy that particular argument in regards to the good/evil axis, but not so much in regards to the lawful/chaotic axis.

Wolves are pack hunters, they work together to bring down their prey it's like the most of obvious, most well known thing about them, it's the lowest value DC check on knowledge nature.

On the other paw if you look at all the famous folk tales about wolves, that have wolves as characters, rather than simply as plot devices (IE a pack of wolves to chase the heroes) then I suppose one could make the argument via Little Red Riding Hood, Three Little Pigs, (those are the first two that come to mind) in those we tend to see the wolf as a lone actor rather than a member of the pack, thus maybe human folktale perception trumps actual human knowledge once again.

I just think that if werewolves are social creatures which hunt as part of a pack/have some innate respect for normal wolves (in general), while wolfweres are solitary hunters who if they drag along wolves to help them see them only as disposable cannon fodder makes for a clear and obvious bone of contention between them/helps explain why these two monsters despite seemingly having similar power sets, have very different mind sets and hate one another's guts.


Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:46 pm
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Evil Genius
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Post Re: Shakin up the core
jamesfirecat wrote:
I can buy that particular argument in regards to the good/evil axis, but not so much in regards to the lawful/chaotic axis.

Wolves are pack hunters, they work together to bring down their prey it's like the most of obvious, most well known thing about them, it's the lowest value DC check on knowledge nature.

On the other paw if you look at all the famous folk tales about wolves, that have wolves as characters, rather than simply as plot devices (IE a pack of wolves to chase the heroes) then I suppose one could make the argument via Little Red Riding Hood, Three Little Pigs, (those are the first two that come to mind) in those we tend to see the wolf as a lone actor rather than a member of the pack, thus maybe human folktale perception trumps actual human knowledge once again.

I just think that if werewolves are social creatures which hunt as part of a pack/have some innate respect for normal wolves (in general), while wolfweres are solitary hunters who if they drag along wolves to help them see them only as disposable cannon fodder makes for a clear and obvious bone of contention between them/helps explain why these two monsters despite seemingly having similar power sets, have very different mind sets and hate one another's guts.


I see your point, but group identity does not necessarily guarantee the presence of law. Mob justice is usually pretty chaotic. Gibberling society is highly chaotic, and there is no true individuality there, because everybody is following the random tides of groupthink.

I would suggest that wolves aren't thought of as chaotic because of whether they are alone or in a group, but rather they are perceived as forces of the wild, primal and untamable- at odds with civilization and law. As wild predators, they are pushed out of territories that humanity (and by extension, civilization and law) occupies. The fear is there of the wolves as exaggeratedly bloodthirsty, aggressive, and uncontrolled monsters that would like nothing more than to tear down society so they may feast unhindered. They represent a force of destruction of civilization/law.

OTOH, rats, as parasitic scavengers, benefit greatly from the growth and development of humanity's cities and other institutions because it will invariably lead to more food lying around. Rats have adapted extraordinarily well to the presence of humans in the world- where humanity achieves a foothold in an area, so does the rat. As such, the evils that rats perpetuate represent corruption of the order that humanity enforces upon the world, rather than a destruction of it.

With the above in mind, wolves might be judged as "antisocial" to humans and from a human perspective even though wolves usually travel n a pack. Rats, on the other hand, would probably be judged as all too social because of their close presence to humans in immensely large numbers. We can see this in Verbrek and Richemulot. he former is wild and woolly and is dominated by werewolves living apart from humanity, but the latter has an air of civility as the wererats live among the humans.


Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:01 pm
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Evil Genius
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Post Re: Shakin up the core
The Lesser Evil wrote:
I see your point, but group identity does not necessarily guarantee the presence of law. Mob justice is usually pretty chaotic. Gibberling society is highly chaotic, and there is no true individuality there, because everybody is following the random tides of groupthink.

I would suggest that wolves aren't thought of as chaotic because of whether they are alone or in a group, but rather they are perceived as forces of the wild, primal and untamable- at odds with civilization and law. As wild predators, they are pushed out of territories that humanity (and by extension, civilization and law) occupies. The fear is there of the wolves as exaggeratedly bloodthirsty, aggressive, and uncontrolled monsters that would like nothing more than to tear down society so they may feast unhindered. They represent a force of destruction of civilization/law.

OTOH, rats, as parasitic scavengers, benefit greatly from the growth and development of humanity's cities and other institutions because it will invariably lead to more food lying around. Rats have adapted extraordinarily well to the presence of humans in the world- where humanity achieves a foothold in an area, so does the rat. As such, the evils that rats perpetuate represent corruption of the order that humanity enforces upon the world, rather than a destruction of it.

With the above in mind, wolves might be judged as "antisocial" to humans and from a human perspective even though wolves usually travel n a pack. Rats, on the other hand, would probably be judged as all too social because of their close presence to humans in immensely large numbers. We can see this in Verbrek and Richemulot. he former is wild and woolly and is dominated by werewolves living apart from humanity, but the latter has an air of civility as the wererats live among the humans.


I still like it if werewovles are pack hunters while wolfweres are solitary, but other than that, you make a very excellent argument in regards to alignment.


Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:35 pm
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