Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

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Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by thekristhomas »

This may be a silly question, but is Mordenheim a darklord? I'll go ahead and say that I always thought he and Adam were kinda co-darklords, but I recently realised that this was possibly just head canon. Has Mordenheim ever left Lamordia? Could he if he wished? Presumably so if he's not the darklord.

If he can leave Lamordia, this opens up a range of possibilities for research, discussion etc. and also begs the question, why he hasn't left already? Surely the threat to him and Elise posed by Adam would warrant relocation, particularly since Adam, as darklord would not be able to follow across borders.

If he were to leave Lamordia, where would he go?

He might go to Mordent chasing rumors of the Alchemist, equally, though a more dangerous journey, he might follow the Apparatus to Bluetspur

The High Alchemists of Paridon hold secrets that could hold a cure for Elise, where else might he search?

How would Mordenheim interact with heroes/villains in the wider world?

Would Van Richten be treated with the respect afforded a fellow physician? Or would Victor dismiss Van Richten's theories as outlandish rubbish?

As Mordenheim is in some ways the Uber-Lamordian, would he believe some of the horrors that abound in the other domains, even if he were to come face to face with them? After all, he knows better than most that the only monsters that exist are the ones we create. Might he like some strange reverse-Velma wander from encounter to encounter trying to pull the masks of ghouls and explaining how the image of the ghost had been somehow projected on to curtains.

How would he react if faced with absolute proof of the power of the supernatural, thus opening up the possibility of magic jarring Elise into a new body, or the use of the clone spell, all he has to do is get Elise out from under the Smothering of Reason (of course there's no way the DP's are going to let it be that simple)
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by Resonant Curse »

I've always been confused as to why Adam and not Mordenheim is the darklord.
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

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Resonant Curse wrote:I've always been confused as to why Adam and not Mordenheim is the darklord.
Right?
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by Cromstar »

thekristhomas wrote:
Resonant Curse wrote:I've always been confused as to why Adam and not Mordenheim is the darklord.
Right?
Actually, the Black Box material does a pretty good job of showing why Mordenheim is disturbed and evil, but not really worthy of darklordship. Its actually a lot better than I remember it being.

Mordenheim created Adam, although he did not provide the spark that gave Adam life. Ironic as it might seem, Adam was gifted with a soul at the hands of the gods that the avowed atheist Mordenheim denied, and thus Adam was birthed with a twisted soul.

So, really, Mordenheim's biggest crime was fanatical atheism in a world where you can, on occasion, physically punch a living god.

Adam, for his part, was raised in the Mordenheim household, and they even brought a foundling into the house so that Adam would not be lonely for company. But, in his rage, jealousy, and madness, Adam nearly killed Elise, almost certainly killed Eva, and fled the Doctor for the night. That was the day Adam became Darklord of Lamordia.

Since then, Mordenheim has devoted himself to saving his wife's life (an entirely futile quest)...nearly all the evil he has performed since then has been devoted to this end. It even goes on to mention that Mordenheim sticks to taking dead bodies (maybe on occasion helping one along with a dose of poison, albeit one that kills quietly and painlessly). It is extremely rare for Mordenheim to actively partake in a serious crime against the living...Adam on the other hand deliberately seeks out people to kill just for the pleasure of killing.

Plus, Mordenheim serves as part of Adam's curse: he cannot kill the doctor and they feel each other's physical and emotional pains. Mordenheim, originally, is presented mostly as a tragically misguided man who has fallen into evil out of desperation, while Adam is a cruel beast who considers torture and murder as a good way to ease his own anguish.
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by jamesfirecat »

thekristhomas wrote:This may be a silly question, but is Mordenheim a darklord? I'll go ahead and say that I always thought he and Adam were kinda co-darklords, but I recently realised that this was possibly just head canon. Has Mordenheim ever left Lamordia? Could he if he wished? Presumably so if he's not the darklord.

If he can leave Lamordia, this opens up a range of possibilities for research, discussion etc. and also begs the question, why he hasn't left already? Surely the threat to him and Elise posed by Adam would warrant relocation, particularly since Adam, as darklord would not be able to follow across borders.

If he were to leave Lamordia, where would he go?

He might go to Mordent chasing rumors of the Alchemist, equally, though a more dangerous journey, he might follow the Apparatus to Bluetspur

The High Alchemists of Paridon hold secrets that could hold a cure for Elise, where else might he search?

How would Mordenheim interact with heroes/villains in the wider world?

Would Van Richten be treated with the respect afforded a fellow physician? Or would Victor dismiss Van Richten's theories as outlandish rubbish?

As Mordenheim is in some ways the Uber-Lamordian, would he believe some of the horrors that abound in the other domains, even if he were to come face to face with them? After all, he knows better than most that the only monsters that exist are the ones we create. Might he like some strange reverse-Velma wander from encounter to encounter trying to pull the masks of ghouls and explaining how the image of the ghost had been somehow projected on to curtains.

How would he react if faced with absolute proof of the power of the supernatural, thus opening up the possibility of magic jarring Elise into a new body, or the use of the clone spell, all he has to do is get Elise out from under the Smothering of Reason (of course there's no way the DP's are going to let it be that simple)
Mordenheim is not the darklord and he's not co-darklords with Adam the way that Ivan and Ivana are, at least not according to the books as written.

At one point I thought that there was probably a really amusing/interesting adventure or at least scene to be had by putting Mordenheim and Markov in the same room and just letting them "talk shop" with each other since they are unquestionably Ravenloft's two greatest surgeons and are both interested in creating sentient life from more "base" materials....
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by Resonant Curse »

I seem to remember it saying somewhere that while he isn't a darklord, Mordenheim is still prevented from crossing the border, but that may just be me misremembering.
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by brilliantlight »

Resonant Curse wrote:I seem to remember it saying somewhere that while he isn't a darklord, Mordenheim is still prevented from crossing the border, but that may just be me misremembering.
If nothing else he is unwilling to leave his wife alone for long , period. Restoring her back is his reason in life. IMO, he is completely psychologically incapable of leaving her long enough to go abroad. As far as he is concerned he is the only reason she is alive and he is completely unwilling to risk her dying while he is gone. His whole life revolves around keeping her alive, which he can't do from Mordent or Falkovnia.
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by thekristhomas »

Cromstar wrote:
thekristhomas wrote:
Resonant Curse wrote:I've always been confused as to why Adam and not Mordenheim is the darklord.
Right?
Actually, the Black Box material does a pretty good job of showing why Mordenheim is disturbed and evil, but not really worthy of darklordship. Its actually a lot better than I remember it being.

Mordenheim created Adam, although he did not provide the spark that gave Adam life. Ironic as it might seem, Adam was gifted with a soul at the hands of the gods that the avowed atheist Mordenheim denied, and thus Adam was birthed with a twisted soul.

So, really, Mordenheim's biggest crime was fanatical atheism in a world where you can, on occasion, physically punch a living god.

Adam, for his part, was raised in the Mordenheim household, and they even brought a foundling into the house so that Adam would not be lonely for company. But, in his rage, jealousy, and madness, Adam nearly killed Elise, almost certainly killed Eva, and fled the Doctor for the night. That was the day Adam became Darklord of Lamordia.
OK, IIRC Adam nearly killed Elise because she attacked him, sure what he did was hardly proportional, but he was defending himself, and was enraged because Elise attacking him had caused him to drop Eva (granted this is his version of events) Also according to LotB Eva didn't actually die.
Since then, Mordenheim has devoted himself to saving his wife's life (an entirely futile quest)...nearly all the evil he has performed since then has been devoted to this end. It even goes on to mention that Mordenheim sticks to taking dead bodies (maybe on occasion helping one along with a dose of poison, albeit one that kills quietly and painlessly). It is extremely rare for Mordenheim to actively partake in a serious crime against the living...Adam on the other hand deliberately seeks out people to kill just for the pleasure of killing.
It's normally the darklord that gets cursed with a futile quest (which may be where my co-lord head canon springs from), and all the evil that Victor performs includes grave-robbery and murder (plus in Adam's Wrath, hostage taking and extortion), crimes which he had already committed during his creation of Adam, Adam's crimes, it seems have been carried out since becoming darklord. Unless there are unknown offences that occurred during the period between creation and darklordship, it seems a case of the cart going before the horse.
Plus, Mordenheim serves as part of Adam's curse: he cannot kill the doctor and they feel each other's physical and emotional pains. Mordenheim, originally, is presented mostly as a tragically misguided man who has fallen into evil out of desperation, while Adam is a cruel beast who considers torture and murder as a good way to ease his own anguish.
And here is the crux of the matter, if Mordenheim is Adam's curse, not the other way round, then he occupies a similar position as Tatyana does to Strahd, and we know that Tatyana (at least incarnations of her) can leave Barovia. So stretching that logic a bit Victor can leave Lamordia.

And an unkillable genius scientist with an agenda wandering the demiplane is an intrigueing possibility...
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by thekristhomas »

brilliantlight wrote:
Resonant Curse wrote:I seem to remember it saying somewhere that while he isn't a darklord, Mordenheim is still prevented from crossing the border, but that may just be me misremembering.
If nothing else he is unwilling to leave his wife alone for long , period. Restoring her back is his reason in life. IMO, he is completely psychologically incapable of leaving her long enough to go abroad. As far as he is concerned he is the only reason she is alive and he is completely unwilling to risk her dying while he is gone. His whole life revolves around keeping her alive, which he can't do from Mordent or Falkovnia.
Is there a reason why Elise cannot be removed from Lamordia? In Adam's Wrath, I think Adam kidnaps/steals Elise's body to attempt to revive her himself (I think, the module's a bit hazy for me), which at least demonstrates a certain level of robustness, in fact isn't it part of the curse that Elise can't actually die? That she can only hover on death's door?

If neither she nor Victor are the darklords, is there any impediment to them leaving and establishing a new lab somewhere? After all, Victor invents and manufactures all his machines himself, so he wouldn't even need to move to a technologically advanced domain.

One thing has occurred to me, it may be that, somehow, it is the Smothering of Reason that is keeping Elise alive, if so removal from Lamordia would cause those apparati (?) that keep her going to cease to function, which may be why Mordenheim never leaves Lamordia.

Assuming that isn't the case however, I can imagine Mordeheim easily setting up a lab anywhere that granted him access to cadavers. Paridon springs to mind as it's higher level of technology would make Victor's task of maintaining Elise easier. Also the cities of Nova Vaasa have enough homeless that would not be missed to supply parts for experimentation.

Mordenheim is quite a capable deceiver might he not set himself up somewhere as a benevolent doctor, caring for his broken wife while managing a hospice or some other facility for the ill. It would certainly be a pleasant change from the occasional torch wielding mob
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by Cromstar »

thekristhomas wrote:OK, IIRC Adam nearly killed Elise because she attacked him, sure what he did was hardly proportional, but he was defending himself, and was enraged because Elise attacking him had caused him to drop Eva (granted this is his version of events) Also according to LotB Eva didn't actually die.
I'd say Adam's version is almost certainly falsified. He likely feels he was justified, but the Red Box just flat out labels him as Elise's murdered, and the kidnapper of Eva, as opposed to the Black Box that mostly gave us an account based on the few bits of the drama that Mordenheim personally witnessed. If I had to guess, I'd say that Adam was doing something dangerous or harmful to Eva, so Elise stepped in. Adam interpreted it as an attack on himself and 'defended' himself. Eva's fate is confusing. I know that she is said to have survived in later sources, and earlier sources started out implying she was likely dead, or at best, kidnapped by Adam...but surprisingly, IIRC, in Mordenheim's account when he finds Adam shortly after killing Elise, Eva isn't there, Mordenheim only sees Adam clutching a torn piece of cloth that Mordenheim recognizes as Eva's...which raises some interesting questions about what, exactly, happened that night, since Eva was already gone when Elise is killed.
It's normally the darklord that gets cursed with a futile quest (which may be where my co-lord head canon springs from), and all the evil that Victor performs includes grave-robbery and murder (plus in Adam's Wrath, hostage taking and extortion), crimes which he had already committed during his creation of Adam, Adam's crimes, it seems have been carried out since becoming darklord. Unless there are unknown offences that occurred during the period between creation and darklordship, it seems a case of the cart going before the horse.
I mean, yes, Mordenheim is being punished as well, but that's as much his own making as the DPs. The DPs didn't even have to step into the case of Elise...if Mordenheim had not preserved her the way he did, she'd have died and passed on as she should have. Instead, in his own selfish grief, Mordenheim is unknowingly keeping her in a state of extreme pain and duress. I suspect if he every fully realized that, he might be able to let her go.

The crimes of Mordenheim are...vague. The Black and Red Boxes say the same thing: he's a grave robber, for sure, and he lurks in hospitals and the like waiting for people to die so he can take their bodies...but he never takes a living person away. At worst, he uses gentle poisons to kill those afflicted with impending, painful deaths. Not a good act for sure, but none of this truly adds up to the level of being a darklord. Mordenheim, in his own view, has never murdered a person, and indeed, the sources say he won't even fight to defend himself. His atheism, grave robbing, and possibly poisonings surely warrant the attention of the Dark Powers, but don't really match up with the requirements of being a darklord.

The boxes also make clear exactly what crimes caused the realm to be drawn into Ravenloft: Adam's murder of Elise and the disappearance of Eva (whatever exactly happened there, she was like 7 or 8 years old). Given the details stress that Adam adored Elise (to the point of creepy stalker-syndrome), it makes his murder of her all that more heinous. He betrays Mordenheim (his father, teacher, and creator all in one), he betrays and murders Elise (in a fit of rage probably fueled at least in part by jealousy and rejection), and who knows what exactly he did with Eva and why he did it (I do not have LotB so I do not know what, if any, details it gives about the incident there), but it was almost certainly not good. It was those acts that pulled Mordenheim's manor into the Demiplane, and it was thus that Adam became Darklord of newly formed Lamordia.

Adam is completely and totally amoral. He has no morals or pretensions of good and evil...he sees only want he wants and the means by which he can and will try to take it.
And here is the crux of the matter, if Mordenheim is Adam's curse, not the other way round, then he occupies a similar position as Tatyana does to Strahd, and we know that Tatyana (at least incarnations of her) can leave Barovia. So stretching that logic a bit Victor can leave Lamordia.

And an unkillable genius scientist with an agenda wandering the demiplane is an intrigueing possibility...
It is somewhat like that, yes. Mordenheim is definitely part of Adam's curse: the two are linked and the Doctor cannot die so long as Adam is alive...in fact, he directly shares Adam's hit points. So I would argue that Mordenheim probably can leave Lamordia...but is never going to do so until Elise is truly dead...which might do any number of things to his mind. Leaving while she was alive would require precious weeks or months to move all his books, equipment, notes, etc to wherever he was going...precious time he will not waste when he could be searching for a cure for Elise.

And its very possible that Adam's curse does have a hand in Elise's condition. He certainly still desires her (which is part of why he must suffer the Doctor to live, as Mordenheim is basically his only hope for her revival).
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by Garudos Celestar »

I agree that Mordenheim would never go too far from Elise, and that in and of itself would make him unlikely to leave Lamordia. I do think that he could leave if he really wanted, or at least that the DPs are not restricting his movement in any particular way... however, I also have a personal idea (not directly supported in canon as far as I know) that Adam could probably "sense" if Mordenheim got too close to the border and reflexively close them.

One of my little ideas is an intended Falkovnian invasion of Neufurchtenberg that coincidentally happens to occur a the same time Mordenheim is intending to attend a symposium in Martira Bay one summer. As his carriage approaches Darkon at the same time Drakov's troops cross into Lamordia, Adam suddenly feels a poorly defined, ominous sensation of loss and instinctively triggers a blizzard, forcing Mordenheim to turn back and cancel his symposium and coincidentally isolating the advanced troops to be gunned down, frostbiting the troops en route, and forcing the rear reserves to pull back to Lekar and wait until next year (if they survive Drakov's subsequent temper tantrum). So tragic, really.
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by brilliantlight »

thekristhomas wrote:
brilliantlight wrote:
Resonant Curse wrote:I seem to remember it saying somewhere that while he isn't a darklord, Mordenheim is still prevented from crossing the border, but that may just be me misremembering.
If nothing else he is unwilling to leave his wife alone for long , period. Restoring her back is his reason in life. IMO, he is completely psychologically incapable of leaving her long enough to go abroad. As far as he is concerned he is the only reason she is alive and he is completely unwilling to risk her dying while he is gone. His whole life revolves around keeping her alive, which he can't do from Mordent or Falkovnia.
Is there a reason why Elise cannot be removed from Lamordia? In Adam's Wrath, I think Adam kidnaps/steals Elise's body to attempt to revive her himself (I think, the module's a bit hazy for me), which at least demonstrates a certain level of robustness, in fact isn't it part of the curse that Elise can't actually die? That she can only hover on death's door?

If neither she nor Victor are the darklords, is there any impediment to them leaving and establishing a new lab somewhere? After all, Victor invents and manufactures all his machines himself, so he wouldn't even need to move to a technologically advanced domain.

One thing has occurred to me, it may be that, somehow, it is the Smothering of Reason that is keeping Elise alive, if so removal from Lamordia would cause those apparati (?) that keep her going to cease to function, which may be why Mordenheim never leaves Lamordia.

Assuming that isn't the case however, I can imagine Mordeheim easily setting up a lab anywhere that granted him access to cadavers. Paridon springs to mind as it's higher level of technology would make Victor's task of maintaining Elise easier. Also the cities of Nova Vaasa have enough homeless that would not be missed to supply parts for experimentation.

Mordenheim is quite a capable deceiver might he not set himself up somewhere as a benevolent doctor, caring for his broken wife while managing a hospice or some other facility for the ill. It would certainly be a pleasant change from the occasional torch wielding mob

Remember Victor does not know his bride can only hover at death's door. His thought would be " I was very lucky there not to lose her" not "She is unkillable so now I can leave. .
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

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I concur with Garudos Celestar- Mordenheim can't leave because Adam won't let him leave- Adam wants Mordenheim to suffer. Although Adam can't sense his creator's exact thoughts, changes in Mordenheim's emotions can be felt. Presumably, if Mordenheim tried to escape, Adam could detect it and simply seal up the borders.

Of course, the biggest thing to get around is the border closure. Some time ago I discussed on here a plot of Easan sending some of his minions to kidnap Mordenheim (as they both have similar situations- Easan in his madness might think that Mordenheim would actually consent to work with him.) Easan has plenty of misbegotten dread creations, but they would all suffer from not being able to pass over the closed borders. However, there might be another option- while Easan is a powerful dread crafter, he is also a powerful wizard. If he summoned a fiend, he could largely get around the closed borders thing. Alternatively, Easan's forces might wake up Baltoi (the Sleeping Beast) and promise to restore her lost spell-like abilities if she cooperated- provided they could survive the epic rampage upon awakening.

Edit: Regarding Mordenheim's crimes, let's look at his relationship with his father. Gaz I (p.151) implies their relationship was not close. As a child he all but vivisected his father's dog and his ear was maimed in the process. Victor's father deigned not to have it sewn back on but instead just had the whole thing cut off in order to "teach the little surgeon a lesson". On p. 152, we have it briefly mentioned that Mordenheim's father died coincidentally right before Mordenheim's graduation. Victor then takes the estate money and uses it to fund his experimental endeavors. A coincidence? I'm not so sure- Victor (and Adam) both may have really big Oedipal complexes going on. Mordenheim first became obsessed with mastering the forces of life and death after his mother died when he was but a boy.
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by Dark Angel »

The Lesser Evil wrote:Edit: Regarding Mordenheim's crimes, let's look at his relationship with his father. Gaz I (p.151) implies their relationship was not close. As a child he all but vivisected his father's dog and his ear was maimed in the process. Victor's father deigned not to have it sewn back on but instead just had the whole thing cut off in order to "teach the little surgeon a lesson". On p. 152, we have it briefly mentioned that Mordenheim's father died coincidentally right before Mordenheim's graduation. Victor then takes the estate money and uses it to fund his experimental endeavors. A coincidence? I'm not so sure- Victor (and Adam) both may have really big Oedipal complexes going on. Mordenheim first became obsessed with mastering the forces of life and death after his mother died when he was but a boy.
Almost, I am sure the Gaz entry is as stated, but the book, Mordenheim, is a little different. Young Victor was trying to open the dog up to look at her puppies and got the dog sleepy with alcohol. He was not trying to hurt the dog or the puppies and barely punctured the skin with a cutting knife before the dog came to and bit most of the earlobe off. His father was pissed and ordered a healer/doctor into reconnect it before it was too late. However, Victor, the defiant little bastard he is, grabbed a knife (making an onlooker think he was going to stab his father) and cut his remnant earlobe off fully. Not a great relationship, but not exactly the young serial killer that the Gaz was making it out to be (granted it is told through the perspective of S's investigations).
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Re: Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Mordenheim's major crime isn't his atheism but what it entailed: trying to play God by creating life artificially. Not believing in the gods? Fine, that's free will. Trying to muck around in their sandbox? Now they're going to get angry.

One aspect of Mordenheim's "curse" I haven't seen mentioned yet is that he will never have his own ideas taken seriously. According to Gaz. II he's come up with ideas that push the boundaries of even Renaissance CL technology--and no one will believe him. As it stands it's not much of a curse for him personally, but it does make getting others to take him seriously as a scientist impossible. For scholars looking for recognition that's a living hell in itself. But going by the description in Gaz. II he doesn't care.

And this is a question I can't remember if anyone else has asked before (likely they have) but what would happen if somebody were to kill Elise or allow her to die by shutting off her life support?
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