Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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thekristhomas
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Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

Post by thekristhomas »

OK so I'm chipping away at all things Lamordian at the moment, but how about this for a fun idea,

Elise Mordenheim nee Brandthofen, bride of Mordenheim and broken shell of a woman, is the manipulator of the events which lead to Lamordia joining the demiplane, and the true DL of Lamordia! :shock:

Consider this, everything we know about the events surrounding the murder/disappearance of Eva comes from either the mouth of Adam or Victor, both portray themselves as essentially innocent, and it has always been assumed that both are lying/distorting the truth to hide their guilt.

But what if they were both, essentially telling the truth?

Adam maintains he was trying to save Eva when Elise attacked him. Why should we doubt his version? Granted Adam is a heartless killer, but most sources agree that he loved/was obsessed with Eva. Also the sources agree that Eva was not afraid of Adam, and so would not have fled from him. So why was Eva on the ledge?

What if way back at the beginning, the obsession with creating life was Elise's and not Victor's? What if she sought out and wooed the scientist to use as a tool to create the "perfect man", planting ideas and keeping him focused on work not family by being "barren" (as to whether she was truly barren, didn't her friend turn into, or was it turned out to be, a hag?)

When the work is finally done and Adam awakened, Victor sets about his education, attempting to socialise him by introducing Eva into their home. Elise objects citing the safety of the child. But what if her objections were actually because the socialisation was working? Victor was optimistic, Eva liked Adam, Adam liked Eva. By Victor's own account he could not understand Elise's objections, but if her reasons for objecting were contrary to those she was stating, then he wouldn't.

If Elise wished for Adam to be either evil or easily controlled, then Eva is a major threat to her plans. If she cannot persuade Victor to remove her then she must remove her herself, or arrange for her to be removed. Maybe this is why Eva finds herself in a locked room with no exit except the window?

Almost all the "sinister" behaviour attributed to Adam pre-Eva's disappearance, is reported by Elise, and neither Victor nor Eva herself show any signs of being aware of any threat. Indeed the only person who is perceived as a threat is Elise herself, by Victor as a threat to Adam's progress and by Adam as a threat to him and Eva.

So why would you attack someone who was holding a child over a great height? Even if the someone was threatening to drop the child, that possibility would preclude you from attacking. Yet Elise attacks, if she wanted to turn Adam into a relentless killing machine, that would be the way to do it. Maybe she thought she would survive the following onslaught (if secretly she were a hag for instance) and the resulting DL's curse prevents her healing.

Maybe then one who sought to use a man as a tool to build a better man to in turn use as a tool, was cursed to become an object. Maybe one who sought power through others must watch impotently as others use power on her,

Or maybe this is just a mad idea...
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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Mhh, I don't know how I feel about it. Seems like she would be an even worse/more powerless darklord than Shaki Hinpi. You'd need to give her some greater way of influencing/interacting with the domain.

On another, slightly OT note, while Victor endangering Eva as part of his socialization experiment without any concern for her safety was pretty evil, I'm not sure I entirely think that abandoning Adam's socialization all together was the right thing to do either. The important theme that I came away from Frakenstein was not the folly of creating life so much as Frankenstein abandoning his creation. (I take away from it that a scientist has a duty to take responsibility for how their discoveries mature and impact the world- much like how a parent needs to be there for one of their children.) (You could also argue that the gods for doing the same thing- breathing life into a creature tainted with evil and then looking the other way while Adam and Mordenheim proceed to run amok.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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I've always found it interesting that Frankenstein was dedicated to Mary Shelley's father, given the underlying theme of abandonment.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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The Lesser Evil wrote:Mhh, I don't know how I feel about it. Seems like she would be an even worse/more powerless darklord than Shaki Hinpi. You'd need to give her some greater way of influencing/interacting with the domain.
on one level she is totally powerless (the level that matters to her), on the other, nearly everything that both Victor and Adam do is in some way motivated by her.

In terms of powers, maybe she is the source of the Smothering of Reason? This phenomenon has IIRC grown more powerful in the recent past, was this increase triggered somehow by the events of Adams Wrath?
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

thekristhomas wrote:I've always found it interesting that Frankenstein was dedicated to Mary Shelley's father, given the underlying theme of abandonment.
Quite true. I just finished reading the actual book and no one can argue that the creature was abandoned. But more poignant was her argument that isolation had serious consequences during a time when the lone hermit was romanticized. Not just physical isolation but being isolated socially as Adam, Frankenstein's monster, was because of his hideousness despite being highly intelligent and well-spoken.

Apologies for going off-topic. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

Post by Manofevil »

I think you're reaching farther than you need to making Elise the driving force behind Adam's creation. I myself have pondered the idea of Elise possibly being the actual Darklord of Lamordia and I thought all she needed was her own innate prejudice to earn it. Adam's creation was neither his own plan nor Elise's. Victor's actions left both of them as members of a family that neither of them asked to be a part of. By all accounts, (admittedly only Victor's and Adam's) Adam seemed to accept this well enough but Elise would have none of it. The idea of having this ...THING in her house might have been so sickening to her as to trigger an obsession within her to get rid of him (or IT as she would have thought of him). even Eva's adoption could have been part ploy to get Victor to get rid of Adam, for while he was clearly willing to risk both their lives on this creature he made, he surely wouldn't risk the life of an innocent child. but Victor didn't see any danger to her and Adam would pose one only in Elise's deranged mind anyway. So when she catches Adam in Eva's room without permission, she attacks him instead of begging him to leave her baby alone the way a caring mother would. The following events would give the DPs the opportunity to inflict Elise's prejudice on both Victor and Adam dooming them to exactly the kind of relationship she always thought they should have but at Eva's and her own expense, dooming them both along with the rest of the family. Elise's motivations would be similar to those of the goddess Hera persecuting the bastards of her husband Zeus and their mothers whose only crimes were being born or catching Zeus's eye respectively.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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Manofevil wrote:I think you're reaching farther than you need to making Elise the driving force behind Adam's creation. I myself have pondered the idea of Elise possibly being the actual Darklord of Lamordia and I thought all she needed was her own innate prejudice to earn it. Adam's creation was neither his own plan nor Elise's. Victor's actions left both of them as members of a family that neither of them asked to be a part of. By all accounts, (admittedly only Victor's and Adam's) Adam seemed to accept this well enough but Elise would have none of it. The idea of having this ...THING in her house might have been so sickening to her as to trigger an obsession within her to get rid of him (or IT as she would have thought of him). even Eva's adoption could have been part ploy to get Victor to get rid of Adam, for while he was clearly willing to risk both their lives on this creature he made, he surely wouldn't risk the life of an innocent child. but Victor didn't see any danger to her and Adam would pose one only in Elise's deranged mind anyway. So when she catches Adam in Eva's room without permission, she attacks him instead of begging him to leave her baby alone the way a caring mother would. The following events would give the DPs the opportunity to inflict Elise's prejudice on both Victor and Adam dooming them to exactly the kind of relationship she always thought they should have but at Eva's and her own expense, dooming them both along with the rest of the family. Elise's motivations would be similar to those of the goddess Hera persecuting the bastards of her husband Zeus and their mothers whose only crimes were being born or catching Zeus's eye respectively.
I think we need to add more to justify Elise becoming a full blown darklord, as a lot of the stuff above involves only thoughts or accidental stuff. If we have the scenario as posited above, her major crimes would be some amount of betrayal, child endangerment/manslaughter (in the case of Eva), and neglect (in the case of wanting to abandon Adam). These crimes are pretty heinous, but not really darklord material.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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Manofevil wrote:I think you're reaching farther than you need to making Elise the driving force behind Adam's creation. I myself have pondered the idea of Elise possibly being the actual Darklord of Lamordia and I thought all she needed was her own innate prejudice to earn it. Adam's creation was neither his own plan nor Elise's. Victor's actions left both of them as members of a family that neither of them asked to be a part of. By all accounts, (admittedly only Victor's and Adam's) Adam seemed to accept this well enough but Elise would have none of it. The idea of having this ...THING in her house might have been so sickening to her as to trigger an obsession within her to get rid of him (or IT as she would have thought of him). even Eva's adoption could have been part ploy to get Victor to get rid of Adam, for while he was clearly willing to risk both their lives on this creature he made, he surely wouldn't risk the life of an innocent child. but Victor didn't see any danger to her and Adam would pose one only in Elise's deranged mind anyway. So when she catches Adam in Eva's room without permission, she attacks him instead of begging him to leave her baby alone the way a caring mother would. The following events would give the DPs the opportunity to inflict Elise's prejudice on both Victor and Adam dooming them to exactly the kind of relationship she always thought they should have but at Eva's and her own expense, dooming them both along with the rest of the family. Elise's motivations would be similar to those of the goddess Hera persecuting the bastards of her husband Zeus and their mothers whose only crimes were being born or catching Zeus's eye respectively.
Like yourself, I see Elise's canon reaction to Adam as a kind of self fulfilling prophecy, her fear of him would have caused her to react as if he was attacking at some point.

I think simple prejudice, however, would not be enough in it's self. For me it requires deliberate and conscious choices to become a DL, and her reactions alone don't fit the bill (neither do Adam's or Victor's IMHO that's why I feel the DLship is up for debate)

But if in her hatred of Adam, she saw Eva as a tool to show Victor how dangerous his creation was, and set up events, that would be enough I think.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

Post by Manofevil »

It seems to me that if we include Elise, we have the first family Darklordship in Ravennloft. It seems like all three of these people are stuck in a particular patterns of behavior that are unbreakable for any of them. That seems like a Darlord's curse to me. It also seems to me that, if we take the published work at face value as we have, Elise has more dark motive but fewer dark actions while Adam and Victor have fewer dark motives but more dark actions. In the scenario we've discussed, perhaps the combination of the three would be enough to draw the Dark Powers and that would precipitate a three part interactive curse between the three of them. Perhaps Elise's life force would serve as the battery for Victor and Adam's injury healing, so Adam gets shot in the gut, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. Victor falls into the sea and washes up on shore, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. It might even be a greater torture for Elise if she was aware of everything that was happening at some level that Victor cannot detect and in great pain as well. She was the one with the motives so it would make sense if the DPs made her curse the worst, or at least I think so.
Do us a favor Luv, Stick yer 'ead in a bucket a kick it!

So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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Manofevil wrote:It seems to me that if we include Elise, we have the first family Darklordship in Ravennloft. It seems like all three of these people are stuck in a particular patterns of behavior that are unbreakable for any of them. That seems like a Darlord's curse to me. It also seems to me that, if we take the published work at face value as we have, Elise has more dark motive but fewer dark actions while Adam and Victor have fewer dark motives but more dark actions. In the scenario we've discussed, perhaps the combination of the three would be enough to draw the Dark Powers and that would precipitate a three part interactive curse between the three of them. Perhaps Elise's life force would serve as the battery for Victor and Adam's injury healing, so Adam gets shot in the gut, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. Victor falls into the sea and washes up on shore, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. It might even be a greater torture for Elise if she was aware of everything that was happening at some level that Victor cannot detect and in great pain as well. She was the one with the motives so it would make sense if the DPs made her curse the worst, or at least I think so.
A trinity of DLs, each magnifying and continuing each others evil, I like it
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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Manofevil wrote:It seems to me that if we include Elise, we have the first family Darklordship in Ravennloft. It seems like all three of these people are stuck in a particular patterns of behavior that are unbreakable for any of them. That seems like a Darlord's curse to me. It also seems to me that, if we take the published work at face value as we have, Elise has more dark motive but fewer dark actions while Adam and Victor have fewer dark motives but more dark actions. In the scenario we've discussed, perhaps the combination of the three would be enough to draw the Dark Powers and that would precipitate a three part interactive curse between the three of them. Perhaps Elise's life force would serve as the battery for Victor and Adam's injury healing, so Adam gets shot in the gut, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. Victor falls into the sea and washes up on shore, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. It might even be a greater torture for Elise if she was aware of everything that was happening at some level that Victor cannot detect and in great pain as well. She was the one with the motives so it would make sense if the DPs made her curse the worst, or at least I think so.
I like the idea but she needs some powers. What about some psionic ones? Make her a telepath, and to make her not too close to the God-brain allow her to roam an hour a day as an invisible ghost. Her ghost form couldn't effect Adam or the Doctor but it could effect other people. Her ghost form would be on the weak side outside of her mental powers which is the only way she can use her mental powers. Unlike the God-brain her PP would definitely be limited. Maybe somewhere between 40-50.

She is convinced Victor can help her and although she is in pain she prefers a painful existence to no existence.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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brilliantlight wrote:
Manofevil wrote:It seems to me that if we include Elise, we have the first family Darklordship in Ravennloft. It seems like all three of these people are stuck in a particular patterns of behavior that are unbreakable for any of them. That seems like a Darlord's curse to me. It also seems to me that, if we take the published work at face value as we have, Elise has more dark motive but fewer dark actions while Adam and Victor have fewer dark motives but more dark actions. In the scenario we've discussed, perhaps the combination of the three would be enough to draw the Dark Powers and that would precipitate a three part interactive curse between the three of them. Perhaps Elise's life force would serve as the battery for Victor and Adam's injury healing, so Adam gets shot in the gut, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. Victor falls into the sea and washes up on shore, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. It might even be a greater torture for Elise if she was aware of everything that was happening at some level that Victor cannot detect and in great pain as well. She was the one with the motives so it would make sense if the DPs made her curse the worst, or at least I think so.
I like the idea but she needs some powers. What about some psionic ones? Make her a telepath, and to make her not too close to the God-brain allow her to roam an hour a day as an invisible ghost. Her ghost form couldn't effect Adam or the Doctor but it could effect other people. Her ghost form would be on the weak side outside of her mental powers which is the only way she can use her mental powers. Unlike the God-brain her PP would definitely be limited. Maybe somewhere between 40-50.

She is convinced Victor can help her and although she is in pain she prefers a painful existence to no existence.
I've thought that she might be the source of the Smothering of Reason, somehow, although that's less a power and more a side effect
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

Post by brilliantlight »

thekristhomas wrote:
brilliantlight wrote:
Manofevil wrote:It seems to me that if we include Elise, we have the first family Darklordship in Ravennloft. It seems like all three of these people are stuck in a particular patterns of behavior that are unbreakable for any of them. That seems like a Darlord's curse to me. It also seems to me that, if we take the published work at face value as we have, Elise has more dark motive but fewer dark actions while Adam and Victor have fewer dark motives but more dark actions. In the scenario we've discussed, perhaps the combination of the three would be enough to draw the Dark Powers and that would precipitate a three part interactive curse between the three of them. Perhaps Elise's life force would serve as the battery for Victor and Adam's injury healing, so Adam gets shot in the gut, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. Victor falls into the sea and washes up on shore, he heals and Elise gets worse on the table. It might even be a greater torture for Elise if she was aware of everything that was happening at some level that Victor cannot detect and in great pain as well. She was the one with the motives so it would make sense if the DPs made her curse the worst, or at least I think so.
I like the idea but she needs some powers. What about some psionic ones? Make her a telepath, and to make her not too close to the God-brain allow her to roam an hour a day as an invisible ghost. Her ghost form couldn't effect Adam or the Doctor but it could effect other people. Her ghost form would be on the weak side outside of her mental powers which is the only way she can use her mental powers. Unlike the God-brain her PP would definitely be limited. Maybe somewhere between 40-50.

She is convinced Victor can help her and although she is in pain she prefers a painful existence to no existence.
I've thought that she might be the source of the Smothering of Reason, somehow, although that's less a power and more a side effect
Exactly, as a DL she needs some powers not just side effects. We don't want another Shinpi AKA the most useless DL in the game.
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

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Whatever form she takes, Adam and Mordenheim probably shouldn't be able to perceive her. And it would make sense for her to have some kind of powers related to the domain. Perhaps she can take over objects, like a literal "ghost in the machine"?
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Re: Mad idea: Elise Mordenheim, true DL of Lamordia

Post by Manofevil »

I agree with all of this. I also think that another interesting part of her curse could be that her hatred for Adam has been translated to the general populace which is why almost EVERYONE who meets Adam reacts with irrational violence to him. This is why, for example, every time he finds an abandoned infant or child in the wilderness and tries to leave it someplace safe, anyone who sees him will attack him, usually with firearms, regardless of the danger their attack poses to the child. I seem to recall getting the impression that that had happened at least more than once though I can only call to mind one instance. Also, taking into account our idea that Elise absorbs Adam's and Victor's injuries and pain, that this would be some part of the curse that the DPs put in place due to her initial attitudes and that she is powerless to change now. As far as translating this to powers, she couldalso be given some minor psychic ability which she uses to cultivate in the minds of the Lamordian people an unreasoning hatred of Adam akin to conspiracy theories. Adam could be blamed for crop failures, miscarriages, sicknesses, etc. In addition to everything else. I suppose it might be redundant to have both but then again it could work.
Do us a favor Luv, Stick yer 'ead in a bucket a kick it!

So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
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