Ravenloft: Free Will Personified (5E Introduction Methods)

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Ravenloft: Free Will Personified (5E Introduction Methods)

Post by Five »

I am trying to fortify an idea that has been brewing in my mind for a little while now, an idea that I dropped in another thread. But instead of "hijacking" that thread I decided to rip my post out and do a spinoff.

What I am looking for is to tap the minds of this community and ask you to poke holes in these thoughts and ideas. Essentially I want to know if these ideas will float or sink under the pressure of your imaginations.

What I am not looking for is to debate the mysteries of the Dark Powers. That's why I respectfully pulled this out of that thread. Well, I love reading other people's thoughts and opinions on what the Dark Powers are or are not, but as I said I'm looking to play out a particular (yet mercurial) expression/explanation of said forces. As much as I can anyway. If I get not hits then I'll just roleplay the Devil's Advocate. haha

Here's the (initial) gist:
Five wrote:Currently I am playing with the idea of the Dark Powers from a sort of "Jungian Shadow" angle. It's a "physical" manifestation of both negative and positive aspects of people's unconscious personalities. Ravenloft heroes such as Doctor Rudolph van Richten would be stereotypical bullied bookworms/ meek scholars on a world like Faerun, and Strahd the vampire is Strahd the warlord's bloodlust personified. Nastiest people are Dark Lords (or in line for), mild manner reporters are superheroes (of the PC variety), and the rest of the crowd are stockart. haha Nah. They're sliders...people who have yet to "decide" in what direction their shadows will go. Best way to describe my POV would be to call them True Neutrals. Thing is, each individual's memories are wiped of their past lives and so it's spiritual-emotional gauntlet of sorts. To "get out" is to tune in to one's true nature. Sounds simple, but it's not. ;)

I'm planning on writing a series of (short) adventures based around this idea, yet when they're finished I will more than likely move on like I tend to do and redefine the Dark Powers through a different perspective, if at all. At the table I never did define.

Edit: I just realised that I have yet to define the actual Dark Powers/drawing force in that particular take. I've only toyed with the inhabitants to date. Huh. Gotta think some more. Obviously.

Edit 2: I got it. The Dark Powers in this instance are that which the gods granted sentient life and are thus unable to control: Free Will. Ravenloft, the Realm (of Terror) is a zone/dimension where the gods cannot reach. The collective unconsciousness of sentient beings.

The Evil shadows are meant to hone the Good, and vice versa. They exist and battle for no reason other than emergence.

The inner conflict, the inability to accept ones shadow is what keeps people/individuals trapped in this divine dead zone. And not everybody has an extreme crisis of self identity (which vaguely explains why the realm doesnt house a billion billion personas).

And that's all I got for now. I'm at work. Haha
Also, I will be using Strahd as an example of an evil shadow simply because 1) I view him as Ravenloft, and 2) he's being hyped in "Curse of Strahd" (which I pre-ordered the minute I heard!).

Doctor Rudolph van Richten will be my example when discussing a good shadow.

The meat of my posts will be to examine the Dark Powers as a cause, both Strahd and van Richten will represent their effects. My views and analysis of both are obviously going to be skewed (they're all of our opinions and tweaks) but please bear with me and poke holes in that too.
Last edited by Five on Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:22 am, edited 5 times in total.
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by Five »

Under those conditions, and as an example of an evil shadow in this version of Ravenloft:

In Strahd's case, his release from the Dark Powers hinges on the fact that he has yet to accept the fact that he is a monster. That he has sacrificed his humanity , and all that encompasses it, through his pact with "Death". He has yet to realise that his love for Tatyana is not, nor ever will be, a real emotion. His feelings for her were always that of lust. To him, a career soldier, the chase is better than the catch. And as he grew tired of soldiering that feeling, that all too familiar feeling of predator chasing his prey, the thrill of the chase, the lust for bloodshed, combined with a general's need to command, to organise, to control...all translated into lust for his brother's wife. Old habits die hard and a battle-born man going through a midlife crisis can easily mistaken the already fine line that separates Love and Lust. Yet he consciously chose to slay his flesh and blood brother in order to possess the man's true love. His selfishness and his inability to empathize (ego) are his shackles in "Ravenloft". His self pity is thus superficial, hollow. Perhaps a last ditch effort to hold onto his humanity. His loss of Tatyana isn't the grief of a gods-damned lover, it's the loss of possession. Control. and he's too vain to recognise the difference. Him being "damned", "cursed", and his "pact with Death"? That's his vanity victimizing himself. Plus it's very...gothic. ;)

To put it simply, all Strahd has to do to escape Ravenloft is to embrace his vampirism. So simple that a genius wouldn't think of it!
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

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Doctor Rudolph van Richten is a coward. Sure, he's a good man, a loving husband, and skilled healer/herbalist. Yet his fears of becoming a bad father to his newborn son are almost crippling to him. On bad days at least. And the bad seem to be outnumbering the good of late. So preoccupied with this growing fear of failure, he begins to jump at loud noises while he commutes to his office. Well, that's nothing new really. He's always been like that. But the shadows around his house, and especially around the baby's room? They are dark. Too dark. There must be light. Light. And why is his son always sick? Why can't he, a bloody healer of all things!, not help nurse that baby, his son!, back to health?

(I have more thoughts, but no time)
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

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Five wrote:Doctor Rudolph van Richten is a coward. Sure, he's a good man, a loving husband, and skilled healer/herbalist. Yet his fears of becoming a bad father to his newborn son are almost crippling to him. On bad days at least. And the bad seem to be outnumbering the good of late. So preoccupied with this growing fear of failure, he begins to jump at loud noises while he commutes to his office. Well, that's nothing new really. He's always been like that. But the shadows around his house, and especially around the baby's room? They are dark. Too dark. There must be light. Light. And why is his son always sick? Why can't he, a bloody healer of all things!, not help nurse that baby, his son!, back to health?

(I have more thoughts, but no time)
Am I reading this correctly? In some PM world this version of Rudy existed, his fears growing until the power of them swept him into RL, wiped his memory, gave him a new false history, and made those fears manifest in the kidnapping, murder, raising as a vampire and destruction of Erasmus. Would then he be free if he could only put down the stake? Do his real wife and infant still live, awaiting the time when he stops battling shadows to be a family again?
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

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thekristhomas wrote: Am I reading this correctly? In some PM world this version of Rudy existed, his fears growing until the power of them swept him into RL, wiped his memory, gave him a new false history, and made those fears manifest in the kidnapping, murder, raising as a vampire and destruction of Erasmus. Would then he be free if he could only put down the stake? Do his real wife and infant still live, awaiting the time when he stops battling shadows to be a family again?
You are correct, yes.

In van Richten's case his "death", or "disappearance", lies in the fact that he emerged from Ravenloft. It may have taken him a "lifetime" to conquer his darkness but he has done so. And to a point, through his Ravenloft legacy (his deeds and guides), where he has been most exemplary (a carry over from the healer/selfless aspect of his personality).

He is now with his wife and newborn as a "new" (and much younger) man. A fact that no doubt leaves Mrs van Richten estactic, to say the least.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Haha

I should point out, while I have the time, to say that psychology is in no way a part of my background. It's a part-time interest for me so even though I (try) to use terms for explanation I could be grossly out of line. If anybody here can professionally quantify any of my musings then please do so. Thanks
Last edited by Five on Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by thekristhomas »

Five wrote:
thekristhomas wrote: Am I reading this correctly? In some PM world this version of Rudy existed, his fears growing until the power of them swept him into RL, wiped his memory, gave him a new false history, and made those fears manifest in the kidnapping, murder, raising as a vampire and destruction of Erasmus. Would then he be free if he could only put down the stake? Do his real wife and infant still live, awaiting the time when he stops battling shadows to be a family again?
You are correct, yes.

In van Richten's case his "death", or "disappearance", lies in the fact that he emerged from Ravenloft. It may have taken him a "lifetime" to conquer his darkness but he has done so. And to a point, through his Ravenloft legacy (his deeds and guides), where he has been most exemplary (a carry over from the healer/selfless aspect of his personality).

He is now with his wife and newborn as a "new" (and much younger) man. A fact that no doubt leaves Mrs van Richten estactic, to say the least.
nice
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by Five »

As a side, from a roleplaying point of view, I've been thinking about twisting Ravenloft, the setting, from a result of a failed Sanity saving throw or failed Horror/Madness saving throw (see Chapters 8 and 9 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) . In this way the old school approach to Ravenloft as a "weekend in hell" is preserved and it'll open up some fun options for DM and their PCs in any given setting.

In Ravenloft any PC of any class (from a Prime Material world) can become any other PC of any other class. Yeah, their "avatar" on Ravenloft (their unconsciousness) can be anything and everything. Gender bending? Check. Cross species? Why not? Or you could just carry the PC over mostly intact. ;)

I'll put more thoughts down later on.
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

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Five wrote:As a side, from a roleplaying point of view, I've been thinking about twisting Ravenloft, the setting, from a result of a failed Sanity saving throw or failed Horror/Madness saving throw (see Chapters 8 and 9 of the Dungeon Master's Guide) . In this way the old school approach to Ravenloft as a "weekend in hell" is preserved and it'll open up some fun options for DM and their PCs in any given setting.

In Ravenloft any PC of any class (from a Prime Material world) can become any other PC of any other class. Yeah, their "avatar" on Ravenloft (their unconsciousness) can be anything and everything. Gender bending? Check. Cross species? Why not? Or you could just carry the PC over mostly intact. ;)

I'll put more thoughts down later on.


"Dungeons Masters, please open your books to chapter eight, page two-hundred and fifty-eight..."

The voice is, somehow, both pleasant and patronizing. Ecclesiastic.

haha

Seriously, I'm going to throw out some ideas on entering and exiting Ravenloft. The aim is to, hopefully, be as seamless as possible in relation to established 5th edition rules as found in the Dungeon Master's Guide, and to provide any Dungeon Master with an extremely easy way to incorporate (a version of) Ravenloft into their campaigns (mists and willpower aside). And I'm going to use my version of Ravenloft (the Dark Powers anyway) as the default, yet hopefully it'll be easy enough to shave off so people can apply their own. Hopefully.

Also, I should note that if you were to start a campaign in Ravenloft, then Emergence could act as a new beginning/introduction to any other setting. Just flip the scene and voila!

Anyway, rambling aside, these are the mechanics involved in both the entry into Ravenloft, and the exit from:

Madness, pages 258-260
Hero Points, page 264
Sanity Score, pages 264-266
Fear and Horror, page 266

As already mentioned, one enters Ravenloft through an in-character and very extreme "crisis of self-identity". In game terms, one of four ways:

1) Obviously when the Dungeon Master and their players decide to. Hopefully this is the default.

2) Through a Madness effect. Short-term, long-term, and indefinite all work and I will be poking around these three categories a little later to attempt to tie them in to time spent in Ravenloft. Again, it's really a judgement made by the DM and players.

3) A result of a failed Horror (Charisma) save (which brings us back to an effect of Madness).

4) A failed Sanity saving throw.


Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws should be the DM's logical target point for each PC. Through these, the character's avatar (for lack of a better term), their greatest fears (which may or may not actually be linked to the thematic domains they end up in) and their inner strengths and weaknesses may be formed. Again, this may translate into any class, any level, any race (careful), any gender, etc. Or the same as the Prime Material core self. Up to the crew. It's meant to be a fun spin-off. A break from campaign, setting, whatever, that can ultimately still be tied back to the original character through the gaining of Hero Points, an increase in mental ability scores that will come naturally with "age" (depending on the amount of time spent in Ravenloft. Physical ability scores not at all), slight level (skill?) increases, etc. That's assuming the character achieves Emergence, and can thus collect these rewards...;)

Please bear with me. I will try to flesh out these options one by one without making things convoluted (some things are being thought out on the fly - which is why I'm asking for input), so this post may be edit-heavy. Who am I kidding? They will be. And I don't have as much time as I'd like, with camp life and all, so yeah. Apologies in advance to anybody out there interested (?).
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

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Five wrote:one enters Ravenloft through an in-character and very extreme "crisis of self-identity". In game terms, one of four ways:

1) Obviously when the Dungeon Master and their players decide to. Hopefully this is the default.

2) Through a Madness effect. Short-term, long-term, and indefinite all work and I will be poking around these three categories a little later to attempt to tie them in to time spent in Ravenloft. Again, it's really a judgement made by the DM and players.

3) A result of a failed Horror (Charisma) save (which brings us back to an effect of Madness).

4) A failed Sanity saving throw.


As three of the four Ravenloft entry points listed above are essentially achieved through a Madness effect, I'm going to start fluffing that up a bit.

As mentioned on page 259 of the Dungeon Master's Guide (5E), the definitions are as follows:

A character afflicted with short-term madness is subjected to an effect from the Short-Term Madness table for 1d10 minutes.

A character afflicted with long-term madness is subjected to an effect from the Long-Term Madness table for 1d10 X 10 hours.

A character afflicted with indefinite madness gains a new character flaw from the Indefinite Madness table that lasts until cured.


There are a few options here that really come to mind. First, let's ignore the tables and go for a straight play. The longevity of the character's stay in Ravenloft can be determined by the DM's method of madness:

Short-term madness for the (prime) character is a short term stay (1 - 10 days), and certainly translates into a weekend in hell. Perfect for one-shot adventures like "Death House". Think of this option as the "Black Box" option.

Long-term Madness for the prime character is a long-term stay (10-100 months, or, just less than a year to a little more than 8 years), and translates more into campaign. Refer to Chapter one, "Creating a Campaign" (page 25). This option has more of a "Domains of Dread" variable.

Indefinite Madness is what I am feeling, right now, would be reserved for the "movers and shakers" of Ravenloft. All of the Dark Lords, and key players such as Rudolph van Richten and George Weathermay (etc), all are Prime Materially-bound to Indefinite Madness effects and must truly battle for Emergence. Most will be lost causes. Doomed. Cursed. Tragic figures. You get where I'm going. This is the proverbial life sentence. The individual unconsciousness may fill in/reconstruct childhood memories and such, yet the characters will spend an entire "lifetime" wandering Ravenloft, subconsciously (from their perspective) seeking out, and being confronted by, their deepest and darkest fears. It's torment, torture, whatever you want to call it, yet it's self-inflicted at the same time. It's the purpose of their visit. This option would be what I would call the "3E Ravenloft" approach.

More thoughts later
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by thekristhomas »

Are you familiar with I10? There is something about this that's reminding me of the Dreams of Barovia section particularly, but the whole adventure has a similar vibe.

(I10 is one of my particular faves, so this is good)
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by Five »

No, I'm not. In fact I have never played any Ravenloft module. My/our Ravenloft was restricted to the Black Box, and later Domains of Dread and Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Volumes 1 and 2. Hobby stores back then were barebones. Well, ours was three or four shelves in an old art store. You pretty much just picked something from the shelf (I vaguely remember a Conan module that somehow got lost to the ages. Still got N4 though, battered though she be haha). And then later most of the 3E Ravenloft products, but we still gamed 2E. My 2E Player's Handbook is destroyed. Cover hanging by a shred of paper. Been like that since...I dunno. haha

But I do have access to it now. Maybe it'll help add another dream within a dream (within a dream, if you're roleplaying in Dominia!)..
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by Five »

Five wrote:As three of the four Ravenloft entry points listed above are essentially achieved through a Madness effect, I'm going to start fluffing that up a bit.

As mentioned on page 259 of the Dungeon Master's Guide (5E), the definitions are as follows:

A character afflicted with short-term madness is subjected to an effect from the Short-Term Madness table for 1d10 minutes.

A character afflicted with long-term madness is subjected to an effect from the Long-Term Madness table for 1d10 X 10 hours.

A character afflicted with indefinite madness gains a new character flaw from the Indefinite Madness table that lasts until cured.


Another option is for a DM prepare in advance whatever adventure(s) they have in mind to spring on the PCs and coax them into something that will trigger a Madness effect. Disease, poison, attuning/communing to/with something alien/concentrated evil, spells, etc.

Then, for the roll of a 91-100 on the Short-Term Madness table, "the character falls unconscious", then pull them inside to Ravenloft. The same thing for a roll of 96-100 on the Long-Term Madness table, "the character falls unconscious. No amount of jostling or damage can wake the character".

Fudge the dice if you really want them in. If they face madness-inducing effects on a regular basis (poison for your urbans, disease for your dungeoneers ;)), then take your time to really develop your ideas (like coming on these messageboards and asking for help if you're drawing blanks) and wait for the dice to fall. Literally. What's the rush? Ride your highs.

I think this would be best played by a Dungeon Master who wants to check out Ravenloft but isn't sure if their players will really take to it (I was one of them with the Black Box. I was hyped, but my table was solid into Forgotten Realms. It took some time, but I got em.). This way the already prepared DM can dream or fever sequence their inner gothic. If it sticks, then extend the stay. If it doesn't, then get them out of there.
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Dark Powers and Ravenloft: Free Will Personified

Post by Five »

thekristhomas wrote:Are you familiar with I10? There is something about this that's reminding me of the Dreams of Barovia section particularly, but the whole adventure has a similar vibe.
I read that section and am now about to go cover to cover. One part of it really made me revisit some thoughts that I was holding off. What I read reads cool either way. Thanks. :)

"While in either world, the heroes can suffer damage and die. Should a character die in the dream world, he will also be dead in the "real" world."

Death in Ravenloft, this bastard version anyway, needs to be addressed. Does the prime character die as well? Do their prime bodies fall into a coma of fairy tale proportions? Are they reduced to a lobotomy, existing in one or both worlds? Are they "simply" (death saving throw, maybe even twice - one for each world) ejected from Ravenloft (and/or hit with some mental ability score damage or flaw if they survive)? Maybe it's random, rolled from a table with all/some of the above and/or other options..?

Clearly I need to do some thinking.
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: Ravenloft: Free Will Personified (5E Introduction Method

Post by Five »

Thinking is done. Sticking with my view of 5E's theme of Dungeon Master's call, death in this version of Ravenloft should, naturally, be DM's option.

A table of possible options (for inspiration) is all there could be. Anybody got any cool twists? I mentioned a few, but I'm limited to one (INTP) brain...
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: Ravenloft: Free Will Personified (5E Introduction Method

Post by thepoorman »

I like the idea that the Domains of Dread are a sort of psychic or emotional prison for everybody, not just the wicked. I'm not sure I'd ever use it, but it's certainly a novel approach with a lot of promise.

(Not really a psychic prison, but you know what I mean; a prison of the personality, the subconscious, etc.)
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