[Savage Worlds] Ravenloft

[De Montour]

I don't like the 'oh so mystical' Vistani either. I like that you regard them as just another ethnic group amongst teeming humanity.
Perhaps Madame Eva's group might be slightly different as she has the potion to traverse the mists? Perhaps some particular Edges or Hindrances might be conceived of to apply to descendants of the folk of her particular sept?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

They're in there. They're just called "humans." One of my big setting goals with this version of the world was demystifying the Vistani, getting rid of the casual way they're referred to by an ethnic slur, and making it so they're less "superhumans who can do basically anything, even break the rules of the setting" and more "another tribe or ethnic group that happens to be thought of as mysterious because of their way of life."

An admirable goal to be sure, though I have to admit that, personally, I think I prefer the way it was done in 4e. Rather than de-mystify them, they de-Roma-fied them. Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but I like the concept of a mysterious group of wanderers with powers no one else has.

(Full Disclosure: I'm actually quite torn on this, because, while I recognize the potential for offense, I'm a firm believer that borrowing details from real-world sources paints a fuller picture and makes for more resonant world-building than wholly made up cultures. It's one of the reasons I like Ravenloft so much, because it echoes the tropes of our world while not being locked into our world. This is why I use Vistani as-is in my personal campaign. But I recognize it's a delicate balancing act, and if I had to choose one part of the vistani to lose, I'd lose the real-world Roma echoes before I'd lose the mysticism and powers.)

Really, I think the biggest mistake the 2e presentation of the vistani made was the Corvara tribe. There's nothing wrong with having an ethnic group persecuted and thought of as thieves and cheats, provided you show that the people doing the persecuting are misguided jerks. Once you include the "oh, and sometimes they're right," part, you've robbed the vistani of the moral high-ground. (Of course, the whole point is that ethnic groups aren't monolithic and every group has its good and bad apples, but giving them an established sect that lives up to all the bad stereotypes and none of the good was a bad call, IMHO.)

To put myself in the shoes of the Roma, if Ravenloft had a race and/or religion that reflected Jews, and their treatment in Europe of the middle ages/renaissance/Victorian era, (as some have suggested for halflings) I'd have no problem with it, even if they are moneylenders by trade. It's history, not a slur. But once there's a sub-tribe of that race that actually does steal Ezran babies and bake bread from their blood... then I'm going to call foul.

Half-Vistani are no more a different race than half-Falkovnians or half-Mordentish.

See, here I agree, but only in that I'd like to see half-Falkovnians and half-Mordentish get rules too. You're right that a different race (of the game-term meaning) is probably the wrong message. But backgrounds, traits, feats, whatever the game system provides (I don't know SW, remember) tailored to ethnicity is not a problem for me, and in fact would be a plus. Let's face it, SF&F has racial reductivism woven all through it. Dwarves like to mine, Elves are into nature, Lamordians are skeptics, Dementlieuse are cultured, Vulcans are logical, and Wookiees pull peoples arms out of their sockets when they lose. Giving a (maybe optional?) in-game bonus for playing into the culture you've chosen for a character isn't a terrible thing.

Just my opinion, of course. Nothing wrong with the way you decided to go for your book.

[hidajiremi]

@Hidajeremi

I've just skimmed my Deadlands Reloaded stuff. I think you are mistaken about Guts not being used in this setting. The Grit rules make direct reference to the Guts Skill and all the NPCs in the Marshall's Handbook have Guts skills. There doesn't appear to anything in the rules revision that came out with the release of 'A Stone and a Hard Place' either.
Still, it's your interpretation of the setting and it's no biggie for me to add Guts in myself.

Deadlands Reloaded is the only one of the line that does; neither Hell on Earth or Noir use it, and they're both still horror settings.

I address that earlier. Noir and Hell on Earth, both more recent horror games in the Deadlands universe, don't use the Guts skill anymore. I honestly think Reloaded only uses it out of habit.

[hidajiremi]

Edges
- Dart Cloud: RoF 3 would mean nine projectiles per round. I have used similar edges for Chanbara games with SW, but for RL it seems a bit over the top.

I don't know where you're getting that. RoF 3 means "three projectiles per round." How are you getting that out to 9 attacks?

Unless specified differently, SW assumes that each Automatic Fire die represents a number of projectiles equal to RoF, so RoF² projectiles total.

Suppressive Fire would up that even to RoF * 5 = 15 projectiles.

For bullets with weapons using the Autofire rules, yes, that's correct. Dart Cloud just sets your Rate of Fire with thrown weapons to 3 without giving them the Autofire quality, though it still imposes the -2 penalty on taking multiple attacks using RoF higher than 1. Consider that splitting hairs if you like, or think of it as an official clarification. =)

To put it directly: When you use Dart Cloud, you throw as many actual weapons as the number of your attacks from your Rate of Fire. Official authorial clarification #1.

[De Montour]

Don't know how I missed that part of the post.

[hidajiremi]

Don't know how I missed that part of the post.

No worries! =)

[Skyrock]

An admirable goal to be sure, though I have to admit that, personally, I think I prefer the way it was done in 4e. Rather than de-mystify them, they de-Roma-fied them. Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but I like the concept of a mysterious group of wanderers with powers no one else has.

(Full Disclosure: I'm actually quite torn on this, because, while I recognize the potential for offense, I'm a firm believer that borrowing details from real-world sources paints a fuller picture and makes for more resonant world-building than wholly made up cultures. It's one of the reasons I like Ravenloft so much, because it echoes the tropes of our world while not being locked into our world. This is why I use Vistani as-is in my personal campaign. But I recognize it's a delicate balancing act, and if I had to choose one part of the vistani to lose, I'd lose the real-world Roma echoes before I'd lose the mysticism and powers.)

Really, I think the biggest mistake the 2e presentation of the vistani made was the Corvara tribe. There's nothing wrong with having an ethnic group persecuted and thought of as thieves and cheats, provided you show that the people doing the persecuting are misguided jerks. Once you include the "oh, and sometimes they're right," part, you've robbed the vistani of the moral high-ground. (Of course, the whole point is that ethnic groups aren't monolithic and every group has its good and bad apples, but giving them an established sect that lives up to all the bad stereotypes and none of the good was a bad call, IMHO.)

To put myself in the shoes of the Roma, if Ravenloft had a race and/or religion that reflected Jews, and their treatment in Europe of the middle ages/renaissance/Victorian era, (as some have suggested for halflings) I'd have no problem with it, even if they are moneylenders by trade. It's history, not a slur. But once there's a sub-tribe of that race that actually does steal Ezran babies and bake bread from their blood... then I'm going to call foul.

The depiction of gypsies in Ravenloft as mysterious wanderers from unknown lands is actually harping very closely to their depiction in legends of Central Europe. They were commonly associated with the abilities to turn invisible and to escape imprisonment, and often tales about them have been cautionary tales where they have repaid hospitality with warning and/or warding those who have helped them from an impending catastrophe such as a fire, and unprovoked attacks with calling down doom.

I grew up with such tales, so I never minded the Vistani much. Some details may have been annoying (such as the always-thievy Corvoran, or their lazy abuse as deus ex machina), but I found them overall flavourful and surprisingly close to the European sources for a Murrican game.
(Here are some of those legends google-translated for those curious: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... chen.y%3D0 )

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The depiction of gypsies in Ravenloft as mysterious wanderers from unknown lands is actually harping very closely to their depiction in legends of Central Europe.

Yes, I agree, but I think the issue Jeremy and others have (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that those legends do a disservice to the actual people of Romani descent.

[hidajiremi]

The depiction of gypsies in Ravenloft as mysterious wanderers from unknown lands is actually harping very closely to their depiction in legends of Central Europe.

Yes, I agree, but I think the issue Jeremy and others have (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that those legends do a disservice to the actual people of Romani descent.

They really do. The fact that the legends are "authentic" is really irrelevant to the point that they're very disrespectful to the Roma, Sinti, and other peoples lumped in as "gypsies."

[Skyrock]

Meh. The Vistani are as exaggerated and represent historical or current Yenish (Sinti, Roma…) as little, as the goose-stepping warmongering Falkovnians are a representation of historical or current Germans.
It’s not like Ravenloft has ever been shy of cliché and flanderization with any of its real-world-inspired cultures

But we are discussing a bit of a moot point as far as practical purposes go. GMs who’d prefer to stick with the original mystical Vistani won’t need new rules (as the Vistani powers have always been vaguely defined), so they can simply do it without further work. The only mechanical thing they’d be missing is the Half-Vistani race, which can be homebrewn in a matter of minutes.

[hidajiremi]

Meh. The Vistani are as exaggerated and represent historical or current Yenish (Sinti, Roma…) as little, as the goose-stepping warmongering Falkovnians are a representation of historical or current Germans.
It’s not like Ravenloft has ever been shy of cliché and flanderization with any of its real-world-inspired cultures

But we are discussing a bit of a moot point as far as practical purposes go. GMs who’d prefer to stick with the original mystical Vistani won’t need new rules (as the Vistani powers have always been vaguely defined), so they can simply do it without further work. The only mechanical thing they’d be missing is the Half-Vistani race, which can be homebrewn in a matter of minutes.

Basically, yeah.

[Rogold Gildenman]

Hidajiremi (or should that be Hidaji Remi?), please allow me to add my voice to the choir of compliments in praise of your achievement - my admiration for your depiction of The Demiplane of Dread is unqualified and intense (for while I have the odd quibble, that only indicates that I CARE about the Setting enough to form my own opinions, rather than that I do not care for your version of it): I particularly admire the elegant way in which you have solved the perennial problem of making Falkovnia a Threat while maintaining the key element of Drakov's curse (I'd LOVE to have been a fly on the Wall on the first occasion he was informed that the ground he'd gained quite literally dissolved under the feet of his troops!).


Now I'd also like to share a suggestion - for some reason beyond my conscious understanding Tepest captured some corner of my heart even as I read through descriptions of it (something about the intersection of Grimm Fairy Tales, Celtic Folklore and The Scottish Play perhaps?), so that I was rather surprised to see that it was not included as part of that Forest of Beasts cluster (although I think I understood the logic behind your decision to leave it out even before I learned from this very thread that you DID plan to include it elsewhere - Tepest is too SETTLED, Religion is too potent an influence and the threats too 'Fairy Tale' to fit comfortably into the more Feral 'New World' venue for Adventures you wanted to give us, I think).

I actually visited this website in the hopes of laying before you the idea of including Tepest in yet another Cluster, which would also include Nidala (great minds think alike and the religious connection courtesy of a shared devotion to Belenus makes it as logical choice); however I also thought that it would make sense to add Forlorn into the mix - in keeping with the Celtic themes woven throughout Nidala and Tepest to some degree, but also because the presence of an abominable desolation stuffed with Goblins (there should be a 'Y' but I don't feel like fighting my spell check) provides the perfect explanation for why Nidalans would be so glad to have Elena Faith-Hold leading the charge and also show why the Tepesteni Inquisition is so fundamentally necessary.

The fact that there are 'heretics', Goblins AND Godless Faerie creatures beyond her Frontiers which she simply CANNOT get at also adds a nasty little twist to Elena's Curse - there are perfectly genuine threats out there that she's ignoring by dint of her personal obsessions ... (I also think that having the Faith-Hold Inquisition to contrast them with makes the Inquisition of Tepest more sympathetic by comparison and I would suggest that it makes a lot of sense to show Forfarian Refugees preferring Tepest to Nidala on the whole - Tepest may be hag-ridden but it's also FREE in a way Feudal Nidala is not).

For the record I tend to think of this cluster as 'The Pale' (a name borrowed from the Pale of Settlement in Old Ireland, but which also had a nicely gothic ring to it).


Now one hopes that I have not rambled too much nor strayed from my Point; in any case I shall look forward to seeing future development of the Ravenloft Reincarnated setting by your own Good Self - please allow me to wish you the Very Best of Luck with your forthcoming efforts.

[hidajiremi]

Hidajiremi (or should that be Hidaji Remi?), please allow me to add my voice to the choir of compliments in praise of your achievement - my admiration for your depiction of The Demiplane of Dread is unqualified and intense

Thanks for the kind words. And it's "Hida Jiremi," actually, though these days I mostly go by Blackwingedheaven on pretty much every other website in the world. I joined the FoS back when I was still much bigger into Legend of the Five Rings. =3

And I'm strongly in favor of combining Nidala and Tepest into a cluster, as I note a few posts back. Honestly, my plans for it don't currently include Forlorn--mostly because Forlorn is a one-note domain with nothing going for it beyond its very weird darklord. I just haven't yet thought of anything that would make Forlorn interesting, and "that place where the goblins come from" just isn't enough of a hook to warrant including it as a whole domain.

A few years back, I had the idea of turning Forlorn into a straight-up copy of the movie Labyrinth, but actually horror instead of fantasy. The whole domain would be a blighted maze of broken stone and toxic swamps, a place where space and time turn back on themselves until anyone trapped within eventually devolves into a horrific goblin. The darklord would still be Tristan, but very much in the model of David Bowie's Jareth the Goblin King. I ultimately decided that the idea was too derivative, even for Ravenloft, and that it didn't offer heroes enough of an incentive to want to go there, which is an important factor when you're working on a role-playing game setting.

Currently, I'm working on the Tarot mini-supplement and a cluster gazetteer for the Amber Wastes, but I have no doubt that I'll get to the Shadowlands eventually. Maybe by then I'll have a good idea for Forlorn and wind up including it.

[Rogold Gildenman]

Hida Jiremi (should that be Hida-san or Jiremi-San?), if I might defend my suggestion that Forlorn might be included with the Shadowland Pale:-

-: Firstly by including Forlorn with this cluster you would be providing PCs a venue for some straightforward, no-frills combat missions (given the Fairy Tale games of the Three Wicked Sisters in Tepest - and the fact they're potentially too useful, albeit tainted, a source of information to kill - as well as the somewhat complex situation in Nidala - which would take SERIOUS convincing that it's Knight Paramount is EVIL - it does not seem unreasonable to suggest that Our Heroes might feel a burning desire to take out their frustrations on somewhere that deserves it … enter Goblins, dragging some tragic relic of a NASTY game), just to lower their Blood Pressure.


-: Secondly by including Forlorn you give the players a Domain where they can lie low, assuming they have ticked of BOTH sets of local Darklords but managed to slip across the Border before it can be sealed; while the Goblins will be hunting them, at least those redcaps lack Power over the Land - and as I understand it Tristan is a fairly hands-off Darklord (apparently distracted by his own little Problems more often than not), so the PCs should just about be able to use Forlorn as a VERY dangerous Home Base for hit-and-run adventures in Forlorn.


-: Thirdly I would like to offer the suggestion that Forlorn might be more interesting if you used the Goblins as something more like the Reavers from FIREFLY or the first Orcs created by Morgoth of Middle-Earth (creatures that have been MADE hideously evil through Torment and Mutilation rather than Magic): suggest that employing this paradigm allows you all the creepiness of the Zombie Epidemic Apocalypse without obliging the players to endure yet ANOTHER shambles of the Undead.

One might even depict this horrible determination to turn others into a horrible parody of Humanity as stemming from the commandments of Tristan; basically he wants to create more 'Vampyres' but has this little problem of being a Ghost half the time (and in many ways being locked up in Castle Forlorn) so he compelled the Goblins to create one another … and act rather like his own Kind in the process.

I fear this is stream of consciousness stuff, so please forgive me if it seems a trifle garbled.

If nothing else it might be interesting to suggest that the Goblins of Forlorn can be CURED … which might make for some 'Fun' Fridge Horror at a later date, although that might be a TAD cruel.

-: Alternatively you might prefer to simply limit Ap Blanc to his old castle, replacing him as Darklord of wider Forlorn with someone or something better suited to the place; in fact this might well be an interesting Hook, showing a building struggle for the Soul of the Domain between Tristan and his rival, offering the players an interesting dilemma as they are asked to pick out the lesser of two Evils … Bad or WORSE?


-: In any case, why not use Forlorn as a place to explore themes of 'Curing' the more malign influences on Ravenloft (can The Land be cured even despite the Darklord? Do creatures as Wicked as Tristan and his Goblins DESERVE to be cured? Is it possible to cure the core problems of Ravenloft or only possible to alleviate the symptoms?).

For the record I tend to assume that the Dark Towers are Tough, Moralising and Pitiless but not entirely Blind; one assumes that they expect Our Heroes to ensure that The Dread Domains remain a Purgatory only for the Darklords, allowing more innocent natives to go about their Daily Business in a Dimension that is arguably SAFER on the whole than many other DnD settings (in that it lacks Evil Gods - not least because Vecna proved that sort of entity to be too Hot to hold - and EVIL HORDES and Epic Evils), assuming one knows enough to follow some relatively basic precautions.

-: One final thought that occurs to me - why not make the reclamation of Forfar a ongoing Quest? (one might not be able to redeem it, but one might at least make it habitable for Humanity) suggest that by putting together a Force of the scattered Forfarian refugees and acquiring certain relics (scattered amongst the ruins in Forlorn and the various gangs of scavenging Goblins that have made it their own) the PCs MIGHT be able to defeat the influence of a Darklord to some degree.

This might be a worthy Arc for a group of PCs, a truly Epic Triumph (complicated by the twisting influence of Ravenloft on any mystic artefacts and the interest likely to be shown in the whole process by the Dark Powers - especially if the PCs or their companions get TOO self-righteous in their Zeal).

[Rogold Gildenman]

Currently, I'm working on the Tarot mini-supplement and a cluster gazetteer for the Amber Wastes, but I have no doubt that I'll get to the Shadowlands eventually.

On a less scrambled note, may one please ask which Domains you intend to include in the Amber Wastes cluster? (given the nature of the landscape in The Burning Peaks it seems reasonable enough to wonder if you plan to simply amalgamate the two clusters into a single whole): also, might one please ask if you have any plans for the Verdurous Lands and the Frozen Reaches? (I was recently contemplating the latter and began to wonder if Lamordia might fit in there just as well as in The Four Towers cluster, an outpost of civilisation in a fairly savage neck of the woods - although that would be an alternate of your own Alternate take on the Demiplane of Dread).

Stay well, my good fellow and thank you in advance for your patience with my Inquisition.