Comments/suggestions on Jester's rules (5e)

[alhoon]

This thread is to discuss Jester's rules for D&D Next
Let's keep his thread of suggestions clean.

Thank you Jester for doing this

[alhoon]

Fear, horror, madness:
- I strongly disagree with F/H/M having a set DC of 13. I believe the DC should be depending on the situation, with a suggested list like 3e Ravenloft

- I believe that madness should be charisma save or intellect save and horror a wisdom save

- Fear save DC should IMO be DC 10+ modifiers for monsters you realize how tough they are. DC should be DC 5+ modifiers for enemy NPCs.
Modifiers:
Size: Small-2, Large +2
Type: non-humanoid +2, undeady (vampire, not very rotten wight, porcelain lady): +3, undead: +4
Have defeated it before: -3
Routinely defeating it (like having killed many skeletons/zombies/ghouls): -6
Particularly dangerous attack you know of (i.e. energy drain): +2

[alhoon]

Dread Nothic:
Medium aberration, NE
Armour Class 16 (natural armor, Premonition)
Hit Points 45 (6d8 +18)
Speed 30 ft.
Str 14, dex 16, con 16, int 13, wis 12, cha 8
Skills: Arcana+3, insight+5, perception+3, Stealth+5
Saving throws: Dex (+2)
Senses: Truesight 120', passive perception 15*
Languages: 1d3 Domain languages (one may be goblin instead), draconic
Challenge: 2 (450XP)

Keen sight: The dread nothic has advantage on wisdom (perception) checks that rely on sight and gets a racial +2 bonus to passive perception

Premonition: The dread Nothic's insight to the future allow it to better react in combat and even get out of harm's way in time. The Dread Nothic gets a +2 to initiative, can't be surprised and has a constant +1 to AC.

Fear of the Vistani: Dread Nothics are afraid of the Vistani and avoid fighting them.

Allergen: A Dread Nothic's Rotting gaze and weird insight abilities don't work past a line of salt and if the Dread Nothic crosses a line of salt, even unwillingly (by a push for example) they have disadvantage on all rolls for 1 minute. Successfully hitting a dread Nothic with a cup-worth of salt has the same effect.
Instead of salt, Dread Nothics may suffer the above weakness for knotted hemp rope (and have to be hit with it) or fresh lake-water or river water.

Actions:
Visions of the future: Once per round, the Nothic can gain advantage to one attack or it can use its reaction to give disadvantage to one attack against it or gain advantage to one saving throw(should be declared before the roll).

Multiattack: The Dread Nothic makes 2 attacks with its claws

claws: +4, 6 (1d6+3) slashing damage

Rotting gaze: the Dread Nothic chooses a target within 30 that it can see. The target must succeed on a DC 12 constitution saving throw or take (3) 1d6 necrotic damage and contact a rotting disease. Success on this saving throw negates the disease and the damage. If the gaze is used on a pregnant woman, the Dread Nothic can forgo infecting the woman with the disease but the child is born a calliban if she fails her saving throw.

Weird insight: The Dread Nothic chooses one humanoid creature within 30' that it can see. The target must contest his or her charisma (deception) check against the Dread Nothic's wisdom (insight) check. If the Nothic wins it learns one fact or secret about the target.
This ability doesn't work on darklords or vistani. If accidentally used on one, the Nothic loses the abilities weird insight, visions of the future and Alien foresight for 1 day.

Description

Dread Nothics were once wizards who delved too deeply in forbidden lore and were consumed by it or were transformed to Dread Nothics by a terrible curse. They are gifted with cosmic insight and premonition but they are not the persons they were and have no memories of their past lives or selves.

Dread Nothics tend to live in dark places, underground if possible. While they're not affected by the sun, they avoid the day and keep a nocturnal cycle. Usually Dread Nothics don't try to accumulate more knowledge and aside of bullying a couple of creatures to do their biding, they rarely seek to gain power or lead.
A Dread Nothic though may be drawn to a location for reasons unknown to other people without its alien mind. Once it chooses a location that it wants to live in, be it a cavern, abandoned (or inhabited) farm or even a cellar, the Dread Nothic considers that location its own and sets his purpose to get it and defend it and considers everyone that lives there (except its few minions) or near there a trespasser. Woe to the family that lives in a farm that the Nothic decided it belongs to it. The Dread Nothic won't make suicidal attempts gain the location but it won't relent nor abandon the cause as long as it's interested in that location. A Nothic gradually loses its interest in a location after 2-4 years and starts seeking another location.
Nothics sometimes intimidate or persuade goblins, callibans or similar creatures to work for them and they freely blackmail people (or other humanoids) with their knowledge of secrets.

There are rumors that the Marikith Queen of Timor or something in the island of Markovia can turn wizards to Dread Nothics. There are tales of wizards and sorcerers that slighted the vistani and were turned to these foul monsters. The Red wizard Hazlik is also rumored to punish magic users that way; there is certainly a larger than usual number of Dread Nothics in Hazlan and a couple have been carrying potions of invisibility that someone provided them.

[Jester of the FoS]

Fear, horror, madness:
- I strongly disagree with F/H/M having a set DC of 13. I believe the DC should be depending on the situation, with a suggested list like 3e Ravenloft

One thing I've noticed in play is that adjusting a DC is slow. Especially if you have to consult a chart. It's okay if the DM can plan the DC in advance, but for an on-the-fly fear check - especially if just spontaneously updating an old adventure - you want something simple.

DCs need to be modified less in 5e. Many characters will never get extra saves so at level 1 their Wisdom Save might be +1 while at level 20 it might still be +1. Maybe +2.
Someone proficient in the save will increase from +3 to +8, or if Wisdom is their high stat from +5 to +11. A level 20 fighter with 10 Wisdom will fail a DC 13 more than half the time while the party's cleric will only fail 5% of the time.

Advantage and Disadvantage might work better than modifiers to the DC.
I could certainly revise the "monster knowledge" line so if you identify the monster you automatically have Advantage. Having been defeated by the monster confers Disadvantage.

But I'm not worrying too much about that until I see what they do for Fear in the DMG.

- I believe that madness should be charisma save or intellect save and horror a wisdom save

I can see that.
What you know is wrong, which can be countered by your sense of self or adaptable reasoning.

[alhoon]

But I'm not worrying too much about that until I see what they do for Fear in the DMG.

I... wouldn't be very optimistic that there WILL be something in the DMG about fear checks. They said "it will support different game styles!" but I think that won't translate to bazzilion optional rules but a list of what could work and what could be broken.

As for the slow adjustment on the fly: Meh, never took me too long. I just winged it.
A flat 13 with advantage/dis is too... narrow. Disadvantage is the equivalent of a +4/-4 most of the time.
If there's a scale then you intuitively know that you can tweek the DC and have a vague idea because of examples even if you don't open the book.
Fear also goes with the element of surprise. If you're surprised you SHOULDN'T get something as heavy as disadvantage on fear, but you should get a -2 or something.

I.e. something like:
Ogre: Fear DC 9,
Tentacled slimy bipedal horror: Fear DC 10 if you DON'T know it has vast psionic powers and that it will try to enslave you forever or eat your brain, DC 13 if you know that.


NOTE: Totally agree on the "Advantage if you've beat it before, dis if it kicked your butt" thing. I can't figure why I didn't suggest that. It's a nice rule.
BTW after you routinely beat that kind of monster or similar, you don't need to roll for advantage unless you're surprised. I.e. after an encounter where you beat 3 ogres together... you know a single one isn't much of a threat.

[Jester of the FoS]

But I'm not worrying too much about that until I see what they do for Fear in the DMG.

I... wouldn't be very optimistic that there WILL be something in the DMG about fear checks. They said "it will support different game styles!" but I think that won't translate to bazzilion optional rules but a list of what could work and what could be broken.

Well, "Fear" is one of the subsystems they have mentioned for the DMG, although they haven't mentioned Horror or Madness. We'll see if it makes it in and if it's remotely worthwhile.

[Jester of the FoS]

I'm curious what people think of my Dark Shadows idea, as a concept. Before I invest too much time.

[Mortavius]

I'm curious what people think of my Dark Shadows idea, as a concept. Before I invest too much time.

I'm a fan of anything that helps a player tie their PC to the setting, and this seems like a good way to do it.

I haven't really been following 5E much, so I can't comment on mechanical aspects of the idea, but in general I'm in favor of that sort of thing.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Well, I love those flavor-based feats in 3e. I agree that, as written, in PF, many of them should be background traits. I haven't read enough 5e to know where they fit in that system, but I'll take your word for it if you think this is the best place for them. In a perfect world, I'd love to find a way to make them comparable in power to other feats, rather than tack on a new system feature, but that is notoriously difficult to balance.

[Jester of the FoS]

[Jester of the FoS]

In a perfect world, I'd love to find a way to make them comparable in power to other feats, rather than tack on a new system feature, but that is notoriously difficult to balance.

Feats are tricky in 5e. They're "bigger" than feats in previous editions and optional, equating with an ability score boost. So, mechanically they're meant to be the same as a +1 to attack/damage, or +1 AC, or +1 spell save DCs.

The small little flavour feats really don't fit. I could struggle to make them bigger and impressive and mechanically equal, but they'd still seem like odd choices. Few characters are going to delay a major bit of character customization to take "Hollow" or "Haunted".
And only humans have a chance to get a feat at 1st level, which makes some of the innate cures rather odd as it will suddenly be developed at higher levels. Level 8 and suddenly the character becomes Red Headed or gains the ability to talk with cats.


Inspiration is cool, but optional and basically a roleplay reward that the DM can hand out. Or not. So it makes sense to tie the little flavour customizations to Inspiration as they're basically an excuse to roleplay anyway.
It's a reroll, which can be as high as a +5 bonus, but isn't going to let you succeed at the impossible.
The catch is to make the little bonuses I'm awarding balanced with rolling again, the equivalent of a +2-5 bonus on a roll.

--edited to clarify some stuff--

[alhoon]

Humans get a feat at 1st lvl?
Meh, I should read the whole 100+ pages of PHB to see what they changed. Or at least post an official "This was changed since last playtest" thing.


As for the "big feats" I'm considering breaking up ability bonuses to +1 instead of +2 and break up each "big feat" to 2 feats.
The reason I don't do it is... because my players decide they prefer the big feats instead of the many small ones for reasons I don't get. It's like they say to me "No, we want LESS versatility since it makes taking a feat very special and reduces complexity".

[Jester of the FoS]

Humans get a feat at 1st lvl?
Meh, I should read the whole 100+ pages of PHB to see what they changed. Or at least post an official "This was changed since last playtest" thing.

Optional variant.
+1 to all stats or +1 to two, a feat, and skill proficiency.

[alhoon]

Found it. And it's unbalanced.
A +1 to one stat, a feat and a skill would be OK. After all, feats are supposed to be +2 equivalent and even if not, you're throwing in a skill and versatility with the "pick your own 2x +1" while others get fixed +2/+1

[Jester of the FoS]

Found it. And it's unbalanced.
A +1 to one stat, a feat and a skill would be OK. After all, feats are supposed to be +2 equivalent and even if not, you're throwing in a skill and versatility with the "pick your own 2x +1" while others get fixed +2/+1

If all the other racial bonuses are equal to a feat and extra skill they're ahead by a +1, which seems a fair trade for sone flexibility. But I'd say a lot if races' powers are better than a feat.