What's to be done about the languages problem?

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What's to be done about the languages problem?

Post by Black Knight »

First off - I love that there are different languages, and not the standard 'one language per race'. It's a great touch, makes things isolated, makes things interesting. I'm talking, of course, about the 3rd Ed. core book which lists all the languages and how they relate to each other - I don't remember much mention of language in the A,D&D books.

However, it creates a barrier to wandering adventurers and the only adventure I remember talking specifically about language barriers is Feast of Goblyns, where the players find the language kinda similar to their own and figure it out before long. And I believe that language (or *some* song-writing language of Kartakass) was supposed to be a mesh of Vaasi and Sithican elvish. So the players automatically speak a language with elements of elvish and Vaasi?

There seem bigger problems however. If the 3rd Ed description of languages is taken, then when payers arrive in Paridon for 'Hour of the Knife' they're meant to start a murder-mystery investigation without knowledge of the language. Having a wizard replace all hir 1st level slots with 'Speak Language' (and assuming sie has the spell) then having hir speak for the group for the entire game doesn't sound like a whole pile of fun. [On a related note - why on earth do people bring food to Paridon if it's connected to Darkon only via a shakey path which sometimes wanders elsewhere? How do the Paridon people get enough food to survive?]

I also wonder if Demenlieu was suspected of being created by the Dark Powers instead of stolen from another world simply to make an explanation for why Mordent and Dementlieu and Richemulot all speak the same language (or language pair) - though why not suggest they're both taken from the same world instead?

With all the secondary languages everywhere, if most PCs speak Balok and Mordentish then that's most of the Core they can travel, but they still cannot take part in many of the adventures in the island domains. Getting by in a new language is a 24/7 job which takes a skilled linguist some weeks, and learning a language with no similar roots to one's own can take months to get the basics. And if the various domains are from different worlds, their language groups are not related.

I realise the last point may not hit so hard for people who aren't fond of languages, but one doesn't need to be an expert on the subject to feel quite sharply how impossible it is for a group of people to 'pick up' an entirely new language.

Perhaps it would be easier to imagine that the various islands have similar languages to the core, or have been taken from nearby places? No idea what to do about Pharazia, or Rukushima Taiyoo as they clearly won't have a common language with anywhere in the Core (though parts of Valachan remind me of India, so plausibly a Sri Raji connection?).

Has anyone else actually used the languages and/or found solutions to this problem?
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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I hear you, one of the problems I had with my campaign was the lack of solid connectivity (physically). For example, I connected Paridon to Richemulot and Dementlieu, but they also speak the language of Mordent (which is just too English not to be based on Middle English). I also kept the Falkovnian/Vaasi/Kalinday/Darkonian bits on their home domains, where a person from Dragonlance/Realms/Athas/Greyhawk can still communicate with some one in the Dark Realms. Below is a list of languages, their basis (according to me, who is also not a language specialist), and the domains they appear in. This helps when I use online translators to name things and when I do the impossible (try to pull off a convincing accent of the language). I found when the group came across a person who did not speak a familiar language, I had phrases prepped. When they were in Lamordia, someone said, "Guten Tag, nimmist du helfen?" They looked at me and had no idea what to say (none of them speak German or Lamordian). The only issue was in Tovag/Cavitius were there were provisions for the group to pick up the language, but with a lot of difficulty, issues, and pantomiming. It was effective in the sense of they were to feel left out and isolated. Also, below is the Tolkien term for Elvish (Quenyan), which is not my creation, but the online translator I used for it. Credit where credit is do and all.

Ravenloft Language Families
Balok (Romanian)- Barovia, Borca (variant), G’Henna, Invidia (bastardized version), Verbrek, Kislova, Markovia
Borcan (French)-Dementlieu, Richemulot, Borca, Ghastria, Nosos, Souragne
Nova Vaasan (Realms Common)-Nova Vaasa, Hazlan, Kartakass, Valachan (somewhat similar), Staunton Bluffs, I’Cath (distant variant)
Darkonian (Greyhawk Common)- Darkon, Gundarak, Dominia, Vechor, Drasidia
Falkovnian (Krynn Common)-Falkovnia, Liffe
Mordentish (Middle English)- Mordent, Paridon, Nidala, Avonleigh
Lamordian (German)-Lamordia, Blaustein
Sanguinian (Russian)-Sanguinia, Vorostokov
Tempestani (Scottish)-Tempest, Forlorn (variation of, especially amongst the Goblyns), Farelle
Sithican Quenyan (Elven)-Sithicus, Drasidia
Low Quenyan (Greyhawk Elven)-Eastern Darkonian Elves
Vistani (Romani)- Various Vistani tribal variants (Kamii, Equaar, Vatraska, Naiat, Corvara, Canjar, Zarovan)
Sri Rajian (Indian)-Sri Raji
Har’Akirian (Egyptian/Hieroglyphics)-Har’Akir, Sebua
Pharazian (Arabic)-Pharazia
Kalidnasian (Athas Common)-Kalidnay
Abber Nomadic (Navajo)-Nightmare Lands
Odiarian (Italian)-Odiare
Grabish (Mystara Common)- Graben Island, Locknar Cove
Rokuma (Japanese)- Rokushima Taiyoo
Cortese (Spanish)- Corto Maltese (Mictlan setting)

Humanoid Tribal Languages- Goblinoid (Tempest), Caliban/Orcish (Saarkaath, Drasidia), Ogre Speak (Sithicus), Dwarven (Tempe Falls, Darkon), Gnomish (Mayvin, Darkon primarily, Drasidia), Halfling Speak (Delagia and Rivalis, Darkon primarily), Kobold Speak (Lamordia/Dementlieu Border), Beast Men (Markovia), Mongelmen (G’Henna), Mictlan (Natives of Corto Maltese), Ancient Flan (Tovag, Cavitius)
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

Post by The Lesser Evil »

Dark Angel, what is Drasidia? I'm not familiar with that one.
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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The Lesser Evil wrote:Dark Angel, what is Drasidia? I'm not familiar with that one.
Yeah, I was wondering when my personal touches would be called on.

Drasidia is a domain created by me and I tucked it in the empty patch of land on the Black Box map by Sithicus.

Here is the link to my world map http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki ... enloft.JPG

I am looking for the time to properly flesh it out for a potential entry into the next Quoth the Raven issue, but it is the current destination for my group which is greatly accelerating the process.

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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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Dark Angel wrote:I hear you, one of the problems I had with my campaign was the lack of solid connectivity (physically). For example, I connected Paridon to Richemulot and Dementlieu, but they also speak the language of Mordent (which is just too English not to be based on Middle English).
I like the idea of Mordentish as Middle-English, suggesting high mordentish is the Norman-French language and low Mordentish is more like Anglo-Saxon speak.

I'm toying with the idea that Paridon could be a floating city which speaks Mordentish. It would appear around the Chivalric and Rennaissance style domains randomly. If it always persisted for a few months or if the mists only crept up when it was about to 'leave' the current location then people would be more happy to trade with it. Despite the local nobles not holding domains, they could be all guild masters and could ask for raw materials then trade away the best of their labour - clocks, guns, fashionable clothes and art.
I had phrases prepped. When they were in Lamordia, someone said, "Guten Tag, nimmist du helfen?" They looked at me and had no idea what to say (none of them speak German or Lamordian).
That's useful, as German was close enough to Middle-English that players can be allowed to 'get by' with most folks in Lamordia based just off their Mordentish and an Intelligence check.
Also, below is the Tolkien term for Elvish (Quenyan), which is not my creation, but the online translator I used for it.
My Quenya is rusty, but I remember enough to give players a few phrases should they ever enter Sithicus. I'm not sure what to do about meeting Lord Soth and Azrael. How did Soth and Azrael speak with each other and Strahd? Are they from the same world? Surely they must have been, or is there a cross-dimensional common tongue? Are the Sithican elves from Krynn, allowing Soth to speak with them? I'm fast thinking that it might be best to assume that all of Ravenloft is taken from either Earth and one or two fantasy realms, but no more. And if Port a Lucine was never a real English town then that's only because the Dark Powers have removed it from out history books.

This would make things more consistent, and finally Vlad Drakov can just honestly be Vlad Tepes, but I also worry that it changes the flavour and adds potential contradictions elsewhere. Isn't everyone aware that they were once part of a large world, and are now part of a small one? Do the natives of Dementlieu still remember relatives they've left behind in England? Do they wish to go back? And why is a Rennaisance-style realm, which spoke rather modern English, speaking Middle-English?
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

Post by Dark Angel »

I try not to think of the mechanics of narratives, but it would be easier if the Common tongue applied from world to world (Planescapes has similar issues), but when Greyhawk has like 5 human languages and our world has like a thousand, it seems more realistic than every human understands every human. But even my elven languages have enough of a difference that they qualify as a separate one (they could understand each other, but not 100% on more difficult concepts). My favorite story involves a Barovian PC who could not speak Borcan and was in Borca. Now, 90% of all Borcans can understand Balok, but would not speak it to the rest of the group (who understood it). When he would ask for them to speak Balok, the Borcans tended to say something along the lines of, "Oh, cannot speak Borcan, Baaarovian?" with as heavy of a French accent as I could muster with equal parts contempt.
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

Post by A G Thing »

I like the separation of languages as a tool to showcase individual characters use and also to direct the party to useful NPC's who just so happen to have the language they need. It is a miniature hook that many players won't notice if not over used.
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

Post by steveflam »

Dark Angel wrote:
The Lesser Evil wrote:Dark Angel, what is Drasidia? I'm not familiar with that one.
Yeah, I was wondering when my personal touches would be called on.

Drasidia is a domain created by me and I tucked it in the empty patch of land on the Black Box map by Sithicus.

Here is the link to my world map http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki ... enloft.JPG

I am looking for the time to properly flesh it out for a potential entry into the next Quoth the Raven issue, but it is the current destination for my group which is greatly accelerating the process.

CCC

Nice map. I didn't see Kartakass on it.
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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That is because it is joined with Barovia, IMC. There is no real control and the Kartakans pay a small tax and enjoy the benefit of its military. There maybe one or two Barovian officials per city and a few have been replaced so far. The solid red lines are political boundaries, but if you look closely (and the resolution stays sharp) you should see dotted lines that represents domain boundaries.
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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Dark Angel wrote:That is because it is joined with Barovia, IMC. There is no real control and the Kartakans pay a small tax and enjoy the benefit of its military. There maybe one or two Barovian officials per city and a few have been replaced so far. The solid red lines are political boundaries, but if you look closely (and the resolution stays sharp) you should see dotted lines that represents domain boundaries.

Okay. Thanks Dark Angel. Wish I had the skill you do with maps ;)
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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Skill? Hardly. Weeks of time without a job? There's the thing that really helped me. You should see my poster map of the Star Wars Galaxy (but to be fair, no one should have to endure my extreme levels of geekdom).

Thanks for the compliment though!
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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Dark Angel wrote:Skill? Hardly. Weeks of time without a job? There's the thing that really helped me. You should see my poster map of the Star Wars Galaxy (but to be fair, no one should have to endure my extreme levels of geekdom).

Thanks for the compliment though!
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

Post by Quinntonia »

I'm not sure the question I have is answered here, though. How do you deal with the ongoing issues of people, especially Outlanders, having to know so many languages?
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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Generally, outlanders will speak some language based on the worlds they came from (assuming they hail from a world that has some representation in the Demiplane). They can speak with someone in a village (assuming it is a common enough language) and the sense of isolation and the need to seek out a specific NPC is a convenient hook for the players (as mentioned above). Another likely option is another person from that world has come through the same (or similar) portal and has been living there for years. They speak the common tongue and the language(s) of Ravenloft as well.
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Re: What's to be done about the languages problem?

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I use Mordentish as the "common" tongue of Ravenloft.
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