Pathfinder in the Mists

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Ryan Naylor
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

The Heroes of Ravenloft Part Two: Classes.

The Semblance of Reason prevents the overt display of many supernatural abilities. These abilities may not be altered in terms of game mechanics, but GMs and players should discuss any cosmetic changes to special abilities, and ensure they are as subtle as possible.
Also remember that no mortal ability can overcome closed domain borders.

Alchemist
Those who dedicate their lives to the mysteries of chemistry and physiology are generally only found in the most advanced domains, such as Dementlieu and Darkon (where many gnomes are attracted to the obscure science). However, the domains of Lamordia and Paridon are the true home of alchemy in the Land of the Mists. While it is not common even there, it is at least widely enough known that schools for alchemy have been founded there. In Nova Vaasa, this type of alchemy is forbidden.
Alchemists should be warned: they are interfering with the very foundations of self and life. Few alchemists lead happy or long lives.
Mutagen – Upon drinking a mutagen, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + half your level + Int modifier + 2 per additional discovery applied) or your moral alignment becomes evil until the mutagen wears off. Using a mutagen is cause for a Powers check.
Cognatogen, dendrite mutagen – Upon drinking a cognatogen or dendrite mutagen, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + half your level + Int modifier + 2 per additional discovery applied) or you suffer a minor Madness effect until the effect wears off. Using these preparations is cause for a Powers check.
Mummification, Nauseating Flesh, Plague Vial (Plague Bringer) – Using these abilities is cause for a Powers check.
Obviously inhuman – Some discoveries create obviously inhuman changes in your appearance. In these cases, the initial disposition of any non-evil humanoid (with some exceptions at the GM’s discretion) is never better than hostile. These discoveries include Parasitic Twin, Tentacle, Tumour Familiar, Vestigial Arm, and Wings, and the Beastform mutagen of the Beastmorph archetype. These changes can be hidden with a Disguise check (as disguising yourself as another species) unless otherwise noted.

Barbarian
In the frozen wastes of Vorostokov, or the burning sands of the Amber Wastes, or the cyclopean forests of Verbrek, life is a daily struggle against unforgiving terrain. Hunters, warriors, and protectors are needed—and the most powerful of these is the barbarian. Lone barbarians can be found in other lands, where they live as solitary hermits or mountain men, or even uncouth brawlers in the slums of some cities. Barbarians are particularly common among dwarves, Darkonese elves and calibans.
Fiend totem – Learning this rage power is cause for a Powers check.
Dragon totem – When manifesting wings, the initial disposition of any non-evil humanoid (with some exceptions at the GM’s discretion) is never better than hostile. Barbarians can also take shadow dragons as their totem. They gain cold resistance.
Titanic Rage (Titan Mauler) – Although you gain the full effects of an enlarge person spell, you do not actually physically change size.
True Primitive archetype – While your weapons are decorated with trophy fetishes, the initial disposition of any non-evil humanoid (with some exceptions at the GM’s discretion) is never better than hostile.

Bard
The homeland of bardic ability in the Land of the Mists is Kartakass, although they are found in every domain. Little in life yields more prestige for a bard than acceptance into the Harmonic Hall or performing in Harmonia’s amphitheatre. Second to that are the stages and music halls of Dementlieu, where the decadent rich eagerly consume entertainment of any stripe. Elves love bards, and may carry them away to make entertainment for them, or shower them with rewards.
Bards may be everything from simple entertainers to travelling storytellers who offer news of distant lands (often in highly embellished form), or tortured performers whose talent is barely distinguishable from madness. Bards are also commonly associated with Vistani performers.
Arcane Bond (Arcane Duellist) – See the wizard ability below.
Song of the Fallen (Savage Skald) - The barbarians summoned by these abilities are subconsciously drawn from the Mists themselves. They are not truly the spirits of departed heroes. They have the Mists descriptor.
Familiar (Sea Singer) - Your familiar is a dread companion.
Famous (Celebrity and Demagogue) – This ability doesn’t necessarily reduce the xenophobia you might experience within your community (i.e. you may be infamous rather than famous).
Shadow Puppeteer archetype – Using the shadow servant and shadow puppeteer abilities may summon free willed shadows. See Shadow Magic below.

Cavalier
Cavaliers are most common in medieval and chivalric domains, although they can be found wherever brave warriors fight in mounted combat. Several chivalric orders exist throughout the Land, particularly in Falkovnia, Nidala, Darkon and Nova Vaasa. Others are more informal, such as the nomads who oppose Diamabel in the Amber Wastes, and who count many cavaliers of the order of the land among their number.
New Cavalier Order - The Order of the Raven
In the ancient days of Barovia, the extinct god Andral was served by an order of knights dedicated to fighting the powers of evil and the supernatural. The order went into decline along with the church of Andral, and was almost extinct by the Terg invasion, long before Strahd’s evil soaked the land of Barovia. However, an alliance between the ghost of a long dead cavalier of the Raven and the Keepers of the Black Feather has kept the traditions of the order alive to induct the few cavaliers of this order.
Edicts: The cavalier must protect the lands of men from the predations of supernatural foes. He prefers death to surrender against such monstrosities and in combat can offer no quarter to those he is sworn to destroy.
Challenge: When the cavalier issues a challenge, he receives a dodge bonus to his AC equal to half his class level (minimum 1) against attacks made by the target of his challenge.
Skills: The cavalier adds Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) to his list of class skills. He can make Knowledge (arcana) checks untrained, and gains a competence bonus equal to half his cavalier level (minimum +1) if he has ranks in the skill.
Resist the Unclean (Ex): At 2nd level, the cavalier is able to steel himself against supernatural abilities and spells, gaining a +2 bonus to all saving throws versus spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities which allow a saving throw.
Raven’s Strike (Su): At 8th level, the cavalier can take a swift action following a successful attack roll to disable the use of one supernatural or spell-like ability that a creature possesses. The target of the strike gains a Will save (DC 10 + half cavalier’s level + cavalier’s Strength or Dexterity bonus, depending on which ability modified the strike’s attack roll). If the target passes it’s save, the cavalier can’t use this ability against the creature for 24 hours. If the cavalier knows of a specific special ability, he may designate that ability as the one disabled; otherwise, the GM determines randomly. The ability is disabled for 1 hour. Creatures without supernatural or spell-like abilities are not affected by this ability. The cavalier can use the ability once a day plus one per 3 levels after 8th.
Dark Soul (Ex): At 15th level, the cavalier gains a +4 bonus to all saves made to resist negative energy, including energy drain and some types of ability drain. Once per day, the cavalier can ignore the effects of a single such attack that are due to negative energy (although he may still suffer other effects that are not due to negative energy, such as physical damage).
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Nemesio »

Ryan Naylor wrote:Thing we have learnt over the previous week:

1. Adam attracts a lot of interest.

2. No one cares about Gabrielle Aderre or Bluebeard.

To commemorate these important findings, and because I am a kindly, even benevolent, creature, I give you Adam, and his three suspiciously similar brothers.
Actually Ryan, I was just bragging about this entire post and your "An Illustrated History of the Core" post to my old Ravenloft players. I'm looking forward to Running a historic Ravenloft campaign using your notes and your Pathfinder rules.

As to your other Darklord revisions...

Gabrielle Aderre is one of my favorite Darklords. I think she is one of the more creative and intriguing characters in Ravenloft canon. She survives the Grand Conjunction, the Gentleman Caller, and her son the "Dukkar". I forgot to mention her role as a Gundarakite rebel, and the love triangle between her and its leader, and Matton. Who the baby's daddy? Matton, the scary monster of course. Her second monster baby! Oh my! I'm sure I'm missing something canonically too. Its been a long time since I've hit the books.

...and Bluebeard is a creepy villain. I've always loved the Ravenloft version of this character from the original Darklords book. The large illustrations in that book were wonderful. I believe the ghosts of his wives haunt him and tear at his flesh each night. Gothic Horror at its best! Even if Bluebeard is (like most of Ravenloft's gothic villains) borrowed from folklore and horror literature, which I believe is the point, he still brings something special to a Ravenloft campaign.

Speaking of "Darklords", what ever happened to the "Phantom Lover"? Any relation to the "Gentleman Caller". Has anyone tried mash these two together into one being?

Well in any event, I'm looking forward to seeing more.

Great Job and Thanks for the Adams! :adam: :adam: :adam: :adam:
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Mortavius »

Nice work on the classes Ryan, thanks for sharing.

I like how with the Alchemist you have a temporary alignment shift to evil when using mutagens. I think it would be really cool for the player to get to play his PC, but sorta be Mr Hyde for a short while. Of course, the other players may not even be aware of this; it's not like the alchemist becomes a raving murderer when he takes a mutagen. It opens up the possibilities of having the Mr. Hyde personality making long term plans and schemes too, perhaps looking for a way to lock himself in control?

But I'd like to ask what your reasoning is behind why using a mutagen incurs a powers check? Seems like this gets us back to the problems with the original Arcanist, where you basically were guaranteed to lose your PC eventually, perhaps even sooner rather than later? I remember a lot of people being opposed to that sort of thing. Perhaps a potential change could be everytime the Alchemist learns a new mutagen, they make a single powers check? This represents the danger of delving into forbidden lore, but not the crippling penalty of every time you use the class ability.

I like the small blurb at the beginning of the class description stating where in the Demiplane that class is most common; that's something I loved with the Gazetteers and I'm pleased to see you continuing the tradition. Also little things, like Alchemy being forbidden in Nova Vassa.

I also like how you word things with gross physical changes to the characters and people being "no less than hostile." It's a nice compromise, saying to the player, "Yeah, you can grow wings, but people aren't gonna like it." It also gives the DM leeway to decide how given people react, with just a general guideline of "hostile." Some might run, some might attack, all depending on the NPC.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Nemesio wrote:Actually Ryan, I was just bragging about this entire post and your "An Illustrated History of the Core" post to my old Ravenloft players. I'm looking forward to Running a historic Ravenloft campaign using your notes and your Pathfinder rules.
Thank you. It's good to be appreciated. :)
Speaking of "Darklords", what ever happened to the "Phantom Lover"? Any relation to the "Gentleman Caller". Has anyone tried mash these two together into one being?
Canonically they're different people (as I'm sure you know): one is a fiend who seduces people and then leaves bad things to happen in his wake (seeding evil, if you will), the other is a ghost (possibly the ghost of a black dragon) who seduces people and then kills them (more of a Bluebeard, preying on distraught women, thing).

I don't know of anyone who has mashed them together.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Mortavius wrote:Nice work on the classes Ryan, thanks for sharing.
Thanks
I like how with the Alchemist you have a temporary alignment shift to evil when using mutagens. I think it would be really cool for the player to get to play his PC, but sorta be Mr Hyde for a short while. Of course, the other players may not even be aware of this; it's not like the alchemist becomes a raving murderer when he takes a mutagen. It opens up the possibilities of having the Mr. Hyde personality making long term plans and schemes too, perhaps looking for a way to lock himself in control?
An excellent idea.
But I'd like to ask what your reasoning is behind why using a mutagen incurs a powers check? Seems like this gets us back to the problems with the original Arcanist, where you basically were guaranteed to lose your PC eventually, perhaps even sooner rather than later? I remember a lot of people being opposed to that sort of thing. Perhaps a potential change could be everytime the Alchemist learns a new mutagen, they make a single powers check? This represents the danger of delving into forbidden lore, but not the crippling penalty of every time you use the class ability.
The alchemist is mucking around with the powers of life and death, and particularly his soul. That is cause for a Powers check, just as it is for necromancers and their spells.

However, just as it is for necromancers and their spells (over even more so), an alchemist doesn't *have* to use their mutagens. I know this for a fact, because I have a Golarion-based level 5 alchemist and he's only ever used his mutagen twice so far. The rest of the time, he throws bombs and uses extracts. I know the class is viable without that ability.

However, if you want to use the ability, you face the risk of Powers checks. If you use chill touch instead of burning hands, you face the same risk. But something else people need to understand is that a 1 or 2% chance of failure is really not very high, particularly if you can halve the risk for good intentions. If your GM is treating you fairly, your risk is quite low.

There are some differences from the original arcanist though. The arcanist had to make Powers checks just based on levelling - there was nothing you could do to avoid it or minimise it. It was also at quite a high chance of failure, of 5% per level.

So, the arcanist - no matter how you played it - was likely to have failed one Powers check at level 6, one at level 9, one at 11, one at 13 and one at 14.

In comparison, there is a 1% chance the alchemist fails a Powers check, every time you use a mutagen. You can choose not to use a mutagen and avoid it that way. However, let's assume that you do use mutagens, and you use a new one every time you have an encounter. Note that that is also pretty unrealistic - in real play, not every encounter will be a combat encounter/require the use of a mutagen, and often, one mutagen will get you through several encounters. So this is a top end estimate.

If you're using the medium XP progression, your party needs about 20 encounters to level (again, this assumes you're only facing encounters at your APL and never at a higher APL, which is also unrealisitc - no boss fights). So there's a maximum of 20 1% Powers checks per level. That means you'd expect to fail a Powers check at level 5, 10, 15 and 20. This is one fewer failed checks than the arcanist, and gives you a better spread across levels.

Now, let's get a slightly more realistic estimate (but still quite high) of 13 mutagens per level. That means you'd only expect to fail a Powers check at level 8 and level 16.

Also, if you're using Nathan's unified Powers checks rules, once you've failed a Black Magic Powers check, it becomes harder to fail other in that category. And harder than 1% is 0. So, using those rules, you'd fail one check at level 8 and that's it.

So overall, the Powers check thing is not actually a huge hindrance. However, it is important for genre reasons (see Dr Jekyll's degeneration and Mr Hyde's increasing strength), so on balance I think it works out well. Similar to your final point, in fact:
I also like how you word things with gross physical changes to the characters and people being "no less than hostile." It's a nice compromise, saying to the player, "Yeah, you can grow wings, but people aren't gonna like it." It also gives the DM leeway to decide how given people react, with just a general guideline of "hostile." Some might run, some might attack, all depending on the NPC.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Jester of the FoS »

I've been poking away at my own Ravenloft conversion to Pathfinder for my ongoing PF-RL game.
I've shown off the Player's Guide before, although I've been doing some very minor revisions to bring in new players and I'm keeping the new crunch low for a few reasons, mostly because there are enough options for my table without working on content my players will likely never use.

I've been meaning to give my thoughts on this thread for a while...
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Jester of the FoS »

Ryan Naylor wrote: Caliban Racial Traits
+2 to One Ability Score: Caliban characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Calibans are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Calibans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Animalistic: Calibans gain darkvision 60 feet. Alternately, the caliban has low light vision and gains a +2 racial bonus to Climb checks.
Uncanny Resistance: Exposed to magic from before birth, calibans are often able to resist further mystical influence. They gain spell resistance 6 + character level.
I kept my caliban closer to half-orcs. While there's nothing wrong with designing the caliban as a brand new race (and it can actual better represent the flavour of the race) the point of the race was giving a half-orc analogue for players who want to play half-orcs. The fans of the half-orc who might always play half-orcs but cannot as there's one orc in all the Ravenloft.
I do like the compromise of being able to build a half-orc using the caliban's racial options, however calibans trade out orc blood and weapon familiarity for bonuses to climb and spell resistance. Losing orc blooded reduces a caliban's feat options and SR is huge. It was a mixed blessing in 3e where healing mostly came in the form of spells, but with channel divinity being the preferred healing method it stings less now.
Ryan Naylor wrote:Tarnished Spirits: Calibans can choose one of the following abilities:
Skilled: The isolation most calibans face provides some compensation. Calibans can choose one of the following abilities:
There are precious few races that have pickable options in the racial write-up. I'd pick one default option and write-up the rest as alternate racial powers, like those seen in the Advanced Player's Guide and Advanced Race Guide.
Ryan Naylor wrote:Changelings
I second the inclusion of changelings as a 'Loft race.
Ryan Naylor wrote:Giomorgo (Half-Vistani)
Evil Eye: Giomorgo with a Charisma of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—daze and ill omen. If the character has a Charisma of 12 or higher, she also gains 1/day—hold person. The caster level for these effects is equal to the giomorgo’s level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the giomorgo’s Charisma modifier.
This is a fun ability. I wish I'd thought of slipping some spellcasting in under the guise of the evil eye.
Ryan Naylor wrote:Moon Madness: During the period of the full moon each month (3 days out of every 28 in the Core, although isolated domains may have more or less frequent full moons), the giomorgo suffers a -2 morale penalty to Wisdom. If indoors at night during this period, the giomorgo is shaken. The moon does not have to be visible for a giomorgo to suffer from moon madness.
This hurts.
First, there's the problematic nature of forcing the DM and/or player to track the moon. It gets tricky if a strict calendar is not kept. And a penalty to Wisdom can also really hurt some characters. Suddenly the cleric suffers a -1 penalty to all their save DCs and might lose some spellcasting. There's the occasional marathon day that has stretched over multiple sessions. Being staggered for entire sessions would suck beyond words. And having the entire party stop adventuring so one PC can huddle in an inn for three days is awkward.
It's a flavourful part of the race and should have an equally flavourful drawback, something crunch-lite that doesn't require you to re-write a chunk of your character sheet.
Ryan Naylor wrote:Tasque Abilities: Depending on the giomorgo’s heritage, the character receives other skill bonuses. See below for more detailed descriptions of the tasques.
Canjar: +2 Spellcraft
Corvara: +2 Disable Device
Equar: +2 Handle Animal
Kamii: +2 Craft (any involving metalworking)
Naiat: +2 Perform (any)
Vatraska: +2 Heal and Craft (alchemy) rolls to create poisons and antitoxins.
Zarovan: +2 to Initiative checks. The character must make a new Initiative check every round of combat, however, to represent time’s loose grip on them.
The Zarovan bonus really stands out. Everyone else gets a straight skill bonus and they get an Initiative bonus. Technically these are the same power level (according to the ARG), but one is more advantagous in combat. Plus, having to change the flow of every round is a little awkward. It might mean the Zarovan might get to go twice in a row, or almost seem to miss a turn. Plus with delaying and readying it might not make that much of a difference.

Overall, the giomorgo seems a little lacking. They (might) get spells, and two skill bonuses. Using the Advanced Race Guide this looks to be 6RP, pretty low for a core race.
Ryan Naylor wrote:Darkonese Elf Racial Traits...
...
Sithican Elf Racial Traits
The ARG has some sub-race options that are essentially packages of alternate racial traits. This might work well for darkonese versus sithican elves. Alternatively, treating them like high versus grey elves and changing stat bonuses might work.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by The Giamarga »

Ryan Naylor wrote:Thing we have learnt over the previous week:

1. Adam attracts a lot of interest.

2. No one cares about Gabrielle Aderre or Bluebeard.
.
Beg to differ: I love Bluebeard :-) I already commented on yours in the other thread...
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Jester of the FoS wrote: I kept my caliban closer to half-orcs. While there's nothing wrong with designing the caliban as a brand new race (and it can actual better represent the flavour of the race) the point of the race was giving a half-orc analogue for players who want to play half-orcs. The fans of the half-orc who might always play half-orcs but cannot as there's one orc in all the Ravenloft.
I do like the compromise of being able to build a half-orc using the caliban's racial options, however calibans trade out orc blood and weapon familiarity for bonuses to climb and spell resistance. Losing orc blooded reduces a caliban's feat options and SR is huge. It was a mixed blessing in 3e where healing mostly came in the form of spells, but with channel divinity being the preferred healing method it stings less now.
The *only* difference between the half-orc and the caliban is that weapon familiarity is swapped for spell resistance (both of which cost 2 RP) and the alternative racial traits are included in the main body text rather than in a separate section, which is a stylistic change rather than a rules based one. If the APG had come out at the same time as the Core Rulebook, this is what all of the races would have looked like.

They are still able to take half-orc racial feats, as it says at the bottom of the section.
Moon Madness: During the period of the full moon each month (3 days out of every 28 in the Core, although isolated domains may have more or less frequent full moons), the giomorgo suffers a -2 morale penalty to Wisdom. If indoors at night during this period, the giomorgo is shaken. The moon does not have to be visible for a giomorgo to suffer from moon madness.
This hurts.
First, there's the problematic nature of forcing the DM and/or player to track the moon. It gets tricky if a strict calendar is not kept. And a penalty to Wisdom can also really hurt some characters. Suddenly the cleric suffers a -1 penalty to all their save DCs and might lose some spellcasting. There's the occasional marathon day that has stretched over multiple sessions. Being staggered for entire sessions would suck beyond words. And having the entire party stop adventuring so one PC can huddle in an inn for three days is awkward.
It's a flavourful part of the race and should have an equally flavourful drawback, something crunch-lite that doesn't require you to re-write a chunk of your character sheet.
Shaken, not staggered. And only at night, and only then if indoors.

In the original (2e and 3e) versions, the giomorgo couldn't memorise spells, heal, or be played *at all* at night on a failed save, so this is a lot more playable than anything they've had before. Also, giomorgos and Vistani had always explicitly been said to only rarely be clerics - this is why.

I do not believe forcing someone to track the full moon is problematic. First because many groups will have to do that anyway once there are lycanthropes around, and secondly because it's not that hard to do. Who doesn't keep track of what game day it is and can't count to 28?

How would you do it instead?
It might mean the Zarovan might get to go twice in a row, or almost seem to miss a turn. Plus with delaying and readying it might not make that much of a difference.
That is the point. They're loose in time. Sometimes it works in their favour; sometimes it doesn't.

It doesn't affect delaying or readying as a strategic option, but might hinder or help them on the turn after.

How did you get 6 RP?

Humanoid (0)
Medium (0)
Speed (0)
Human heritage ability scores (0)
Linguist (1)
Spell-like abilities (1 x 0, 1 x 1, 1 x 2 lvl spells = 4; however all of these are offensive spells, so it should be more like 5)
Skill bonus x 2 (4)
Moon madness (-1; look at the weaknesses worth 2 RP - it's definitely not that bad)
= 9, or equivalent to a human or halfling.
At worst 8, or equivalent to a half-orc.
The ARG has some sub-race options that are essentially packages of alternate racial traits. This might work well for darkonese versus sithican elves. Alternatively, treating them like high versus grey elves and changing stat bonuses might work.
This is fundamentally what they are.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Jester of the FoS »

Ryan Naylor wrote:The *only* difference between the half-orc and the caliban is that weapon familiarity is swapped for spell resistance (both of which cost 2 RP) and the alternative racial traits are included in the main body text rather than in a separate section, which is a stylistic change rather than a rules based one. If the APG had come out at the same time as the Core Rulebook, this is what all of the races would have looked like.
They may be both 2RP but that doesn't mean they're particularly equivalent changes. One's an ability that benefits half of characters while the other is pretty continually useful.
Ryan Naylor wrote:They are still able to take half-orc racial feats, as it says at the bottom of the section.
Oops.
The perils of trying to review on your lunchbreak while regularly distracted by students... :?
Ryan Naylor wrote:Shaken, not staggered. And only at night, and only then if indoors.
I stand corrected.
Ryan Naylor wrote:In the original (2e and 3e) versions, the giomorgo couldn't memorise spells, heal, or be played *at all* at night on a failed save, so this is a lot more playable than anything they've had before. Also, giomorgos and Vistani had always explicitly been said to only rarely be clerics - this is why.
Earlier editions may have been harsher, but that doesn't make a heavy penalty easier to swallow now. Limited half-Vistani clerics is something handled best in descriptive text. But a mechanical penalty to Wisdom means players aren't going to even want to play the rare but not unknown giomorgo cleric and instead will find classes that don't use Wisdom and instead ignore the penalty.
Plus, Wisdom also hits other classes than clerics. Druids are hit, as are rangers, gunslingers, monks, and fighters.
Ryan Naylor wrote:I do not believe forcing someone to track the full moon is problematic. First because many groups will have to do that anyway once there are lycanthropes around, and secondly because it's not that hard to do. Who doesn't keep track of what game day it is and can't count to 28?
It's not hard but it pushes the group to do so. It mandates a calender. It's like adding a race empowered by ley lines; it might have cool powers and flavour but suddenly the DM has to consider ley lines in every adventure. It's one more thing to track and remember. And having tracked a calendar before, it also causes arguments. People miss days or the passage of time is uncertain.
Ryan Naylor wrote:How would you do it instead?
I might keep it as a strictly role-playing based penalty. Make it a story and character element. Making it mechanical limits a player's choices and is a poor balancing factor as it's easily avoided.
It's too easy to look at the penalty and go "okay, I don't want to play a weapon user as they'll be hurt by shaken, or a class that uses Wisdom. So I'll play a wizard. Or if I play a sorcerer to take advantage of the free spells."
Ryan Naylor wrote:
It might mean the Zarovan might get to go twice in a row, or almost seem to miss a turn. Plus with delaying and readying it might not make that much of a difference.
That is the point. They're loose in time. Sometimes it works in their favour; sometimes it doesn't.

It doesn't affect delaying or readying as a strategic option, but might hinder or help them on the turn after.
I'd really have to see how it plays at the table. I can see it really slowing things down and the player having to continually be reminded and the DM continually forgetting and just moving through the order normally.
It really pushes the DM to have a physical manipulative for tracking initiative, such as cards, otherwise there's a lot of erasing and tweaking. I use a magnetic whiteboard so someone would be standing and sitting every round to fiddle with the giomorgo's initiative.

I actually considered playing with initiative when doing my half-vistani write-up. I considered rerolling but thought it might be cumbersome. I also considered a random bonus (something like +1d6-3) or having the initiative change after certain actions.
Ryan Naylor wrote:How did you get 6 RP?

Humanoid (0)
Medium (0)
Speed (0)
Human heritage ability scores (0)
Linguist (1)
Spell-like abilities (1 x 0, 1 x 1, 1 x 2 lvl spells = 4; however all of these are offensive spells, so it should be more like 5)
Skill bonus x 2 (4)
Moon madness (-1; look at the weaknesses worth 2 RP - it's definitely not that bad)
= 9, or equivalent to a human or halfling.
At worst 8, or equivalent to a half-orc.
I eye-balled it and missed a couple things. Linguist for one, and hold person. The spells are weird; while permissible having a 2nd-level spell as a racial power is unusual. Especially since you could get it at 1st-level! And the Cha 12 requirement seems awkward. Having the two different pre-reqs doesn't flow easily. A different lower level spell might work more easily.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Mortavius »

I agree with Jester that the penalty to Wisdom is strong.

But I don't think it will really change anything. It's no different from a player looking at a Half-Orc and thinking "I'm gonna play a Fighter or Barbarian with that race because they get a bonus to Strength." It's exactly the same, just looking at it from a negative perspective (I won't play a Cleric) than a positive one (I will play a Fighter.)

I think a player who builds his PC like that is going to think that, no matter what you do. Some folks want to make the best character they can.

I also know players who play certain combinations for the challenge they provide; Half-Orc Mages, Dwarven Sorcerers, etc. There is something appealing about knowing that the deck is stacked against you (however slightly) from the start, and you still overcome.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Nemesio »

I know I may be missing the point, but some players, like myself, actually like playing characters with limitations based on game mechanics.

For instance, I play a miniature horse hengeyokai in one campaign. In his hybrid form he has a strength bonus and is pretty tough, but he prefers his meek little miniature horse form to all others. He can only shapechange a limited number of times per day, so he often spites the rest of the party by ending up stuck in his favorite [practically defenseless] form.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Jester of the FoS wrote: They may be both 2RP but that doesn't mean they're particularly equivalent changes. One's an ability that benefits half of characters while the other is pretty continually useful.
Spell resistance is as much of a curse as it is as benefit, because it affects friendly fire and takes a standard action to lower. A lot of people miss the action cost, which is important for the ability's balance.

I think they're about equal, especially (as Mortavius says), people who play half-orcs are often playing classes where the weapons bonus is actually meaningful.
Earlier editions may have been harsher, but that doesn't make a heavy penalty easier to swallow now. Limited half-Vistani clerics is something handled best in descriptive text. But a mechanical penalty to Wisdom means players aren't going to even want to play the rare but not unknown giomorgo cleric and instead will find classes that don't use Wisdom and instead ignore the penalty.
Plus, Wisdom also hits other classes than clerics. Druids are hit, as are rangers, gunslingers, monks, and fighters.


I understand your point, but I still disagree. It's a penalty that affects you for a maximum of 36 hours out of every 672, or 1/19 of the time. If you want to play the atypical giomorgo cleric/monk/gunslinger, there is plenty of time to do it in.

I also still don't think tracking the phases of the moon is that much of an issue, but you haven't convinced me and I'm obviously not going to convince you, so we might as well agree to disagree. As Nemesio said, it'll appeal to some players, but perhaps not to others.

If you choose to deal with the lunatio through role playing rather than mechanically, the race will still be balanced with 10 RP or less.
I'd really have to see how it plays at the table. I can see it really slowing things down and the player having to continually be reminded and the DM continually forgetting and just moving through the order normally.
It really pushes the DM to have a physical manipulative for tracking initiative, such as cards, otherwise there's a lot of erasing and tweaking. I use a magnetic whiteboard so someone would be standing and sitting every round to fiddle with the giomorgo's initiative.

I actually considered playing with initiative when doing my half-vistani write-up. I considered rerolling but thought it might be cumbersome. I also considered a random bonus (something like +1d6-3) or having the initiative change after certain actions.


I have tried it and found it wasn't too much of a pain. I actually found the +1d6-3 style modifier to be more irritating.
The spells are weird; while permissible having a 2nd-level spell as a racial power is unusual. Especially since you could get it at 1st-level! And the Cha 12 requirement seems awkward. Having the two different pre-reqs doesn't flow easily. A different lower level spell might work more easily.
Well actually, tieflings can cast a second level spell from 1st level, and aasimar can cast a 3rd level spell.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Jester of the FoS »

Ryan Naylor wrote:
Jester of the FoS wrote:They may be both 2RP but that doesn't mean they're particularly equivalent changes. One's an ability that benefits half of characters while the other is pretty continually useful.
Spell resistance is as much of a curse as it is as benefit, because it affects friendly fire and takes a standard action to lower. A lot of people miss the action cost, which is important for the ability's balance.
I'm aware of the standard action to lower. But the curse:benefit ratio is skewed because you can be buffed outside of combat easily. It's much more often going to be a benefit. (Well... aside from the fact 7+ SR is going to be overcome pretty quickly and most monsters will have a higher CL than the party to act as a challenge.)

The problem isn't that it's unbalanced or more powerful, just that it's very different than the ability it's replacing. Good ability swaps are largely lateral. Different skills replacing a skill-based bonus, a different race in a race-keyed power, a bonus against spells in place of a bonus against poisons, etc. Alternatively, the changes are flavour based, such as giving up a flexibility-based trait for a dedication-based trait.

This is giving up a static weapon proficiency for the ability to resist magic. They're very different abilities in very different categories. One is offensive one is defensive, one is knowledge based and one is magic, one is learned and the other is inherent.
SR is only loosely related to caliban. It's not so strong of a connection that the change is easy to overlook. Caliban don't scream "we resist magic!".
Ryan Naylor wrote:
Jester of the FoS wrote:I'd really have to see how it plays at the table. I can see it really slowing things down and the player having to continually be reminded and the DM continually forgetting and just moving through the order normally.
It really pushes the DM to have a physical manipulative for tracking initiative, such as cards, otherwise there's a lot of erasing and tweaking. I use a magnetic whiteboard so someone would be standing and sitting every round to fiddle with the giomorgo's initiative.

I actually considered playing with initiative when doing my half-vistani write-up. I considered rerolling but thought it might be cumbersome. I also considered a random bonus (something like +1d6-3) or having the initiative change after certain actions.


I have tried it and found it wasn't too much of a pain. I actually found the +1d6-3 style modifier to be more irritating.
I stopped to think about what my players would do if they had a race that let them reroll initiative. And they'd try and hack the system.
Stacking high initiative bonuses usually lets you go first, but you're always at the mercy of a bad die roll. With a half-vistani you could get the racial bonus, Improved Initiative, and a trait for +8 to Initiative. Plus Dex. We'll go with rogue for this example, as they have a strong benefit to acting first. So possibly an Initiative of +11 at first level.
If you roll high (11+ on a d20) you go first. And even if you roll moderate (6-10) you go in the middle. The only way you go last or even low is with a very low roll (1-5). So you'll almost always get to go first in combat. But... if you do roll low, you'll get a reroll. And you'll know the odds are in your favour of rolling a higher number and acting twice in close succession. So you can set-up actions and position yourself accordingly.

Really, the Zarovan bonus is an awkward hold-over from 2nd Edition. Every other tasque has received skill-based bonuses and they've always monkied with initiative to reflect being outside of time. The outside of time thing is best handled with flavour and role-playing suggestions. They should have a comparable and equivalent ability, a skill-based ability like the other options. Otherwise it's not an equivalent exchange even if they are the same RP.
Ryan Naylor wrote:
Jester of the FoS wrote:The spells are weird; while permissible having a 2nd-level spell as a racial power is unusual. Especially since you could get it at 1st-level! And the Cha 12 requirement seems awkward. Having the two different pre-reqs doesn't flow easily. A different lower level spell might work more easily.
Well actually, tieflings can cast a second level spell from 1st level, and aasimar can cast a 3rd level spell.
Right, but tieflings and aasimar can just cast spells. There's no ability requirement. The problem is the flow of the text. There's a second pre-req hidden in the middle of the text. No other racial power I can find has a secondary pre-req or has a Cha 12+ requirement.
Again, if this were incredibly thematic it might work fine. But hold person is not. It's offensive, which is already discouraged, and it makes the formatting awkward.
There's no reason not to dump it and stick with the couple 1st-level spells and fine another more suitable and interesting racial power.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Mortavius »

Jester of the FoS wrote:Caliban don't scream "we resist magic!".
I dunno, it worked for me. Calibans are often described as being exposed to magic or the presence of a Hag while they are in the womb, and it's a common trope in D&D that characters that are formatively or regularly exposed to something develop a resistance or immunity to it.
Jester of the FoS wrote:I stopped to think about what my players would do if they had a race that let them reroll initiative. And they'd try and hack the system.
Stacking high initiative bonuses usually lets you go first, but you're always at the mercy of a bad die roll. With a half-vistani you could get the racial bonus, Improved Initiative, and a trait for +8 to Initiative. Plus Dex. We'll go with rogue for this example, as they have a strong benefit to acting first. So possibly an Initiative of +11 at first level.
If you roll high (11+ on a d20) you go first. And even if you roll moderate (6-10) you go in the middle. The only way you go last or even low is with a very low roll (1-5). So you'll almost always get to go first in combat. But... if you do roll low, you'll get a reroll. And you'll know the odds are in your favour of rolling a higher number and acting twice in close succession. So you can set-up actions and position yourself accordingly.
But there's another side to the whole thing. You can't react nearly as well. Sure, going first can be great, and most players who play Rogues stack Dex and get high initiatives so they can sneak attack as much as possible. That's a way the class is played, and the way it's mostly played, in my experience. But going first doesn't always give you an advantage. Sometimes it's great to go last, because you can adapt to what your enemies do, and might be able to find a better action.

I think it's in how you look at initiative. Is it always better to go first? Or is it just a scale determining who goes when?
Jester of the FoS wrote:Right, but tieflings and aasimar can just cast spells. There's no ability requirement. The problem is the flow of the text. There's a second pre-req hidden in the middle of the text. No other racial power I can find has a secondary pre-req or has a Cha 12+ requirement.
Again, if this were incredibly thematic it might work fine. But hold person is not. It's offensive, which is already discouraged, and it makes the formatting awkward.
There's no reason not to dump it and stick with the couple 1st-level spells and fine another more suitable and interesting racial power.
I agree with Jester on this point. It was a little awkward when I read it to see a couple spells for Cha 11, and then another for Cha 12. I agree, the math works properly Ryan, and if you were a spellcaster you'd have to adhere to that. But perhaps if you want to keep all three of those spells, just make it Cha 11?

I did think the first time I read it that Hold Person was quite powerful. That basically assures a quick kill on a humanoid who fails it's save, once per day. What if, as a suggestion, Hold Person was folded into a feat that a higher level Half-Vistana could take, ala the higher level spell-like abilities of Drow?
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