Azalin Ressurecting Irik?

[Zilfer]

Quick question for Azalin experts out there. In king of the dead if i'm not mistaken he finds a resurrection spell? And correct me if i'm wrong but he's able to do magic in that horrible room that makes him feel unimaginable pain. Which increases with each second, and if he leaves and comes back the room still has that increased intensity he last left off at but he's able to use his 'sight'. Well there he seems to do stuff he normally can't why doesn't he cast the spell there? Or maybe I'm forgetting that he already tried this..... I vaguely remember him trying to do 'something.' in there and failing?

Second question.... does he not trust any Cleric to cast the scroll he found? or resurrection spells? Anyone got any ideas on that subject? Not pertinent to any game so I don't need a definite answer I was just pondering today. xD

[Ryan Naylor]

He does try to cast the spell there. It fails because he can't bear stay in the room to see it through.

It doesn't seem to be a classic resurrection spell, by the way.



He doesn't seem to publicly want to admit to his "failure" with Irik, and seems to largely have contempt for any spellcaster who isn't him. He also doesn't want his tormentors to have any further power over him, and seems to know that RL clerics are probably supplied by the Dark Powers and not the gods.

[Mortavius]

I can't answer the first question, because I don't remember the details.

But as to the second...Azalin is egotistical. He wouldn't ask someone else to do something; he'd do it himself. Doesn't matter, if game mechanic-wise, Azalin cannot cast divine spells. He wouldn't accept that; he'd find a way to do it.

Add to that the fact that Azalin is inhabiting Irik's bones now, and he wouldn't really want Irik back, because that would leave him with no body.

[Zilfer]

I can't answer the first question, because I don't remember the details.

But as to the second...Azalin is egotistical. He wouldn't ask someone else to do something; he'd do it himself. Doesn't matter, if game mechanic-wise, Azalin cannot cast divine spells. He wouldn't accept that; he'd find a way to do it.

Add to that the fact that Azalin is inhabiting Irik's bones now, and he wouldn't really want Irik back, because that would leave him with no body.

Ah yes... does that happen in the second book? I remember someone saying that.... Last I left off with an illusion of Irik is left and the real Irik was offered a way out of ravenloft. Which Irik's character taking the way out just doesn't seem that characteristic of him to me.... kinda felt off when I read it. I thought the son would stay no matter how far gone his father was and that would make the situation all the more.... tragic.

If he's inheriting Irik's body is he still Undead? Or does he had another form for that.... (again sorry for the questions xD)

As for Divine spells he could cast Wish couldn't he? To duplicate a divine spell.... up to level something I believe. He must not have it mechanically wise or the DP's will twist it or something. Good point that he wouldn't trust anyone in Ravenloft for the most part especially Clerics since they get their power probably from the DP. Wonder if that's a reason or him trying to make the Cleric's of Eternal Order.... to experiment with belief giving power to cast spells..... nice. Maybe my two PC Eternal Order paladin's shall one day find out the Eternal Order is a ruse.... xD

Thanks for the quick responses! I'm sure these questions have been asked to dead..... heh Azalin would kill me for that pun.

[HuManBing]

As usual, I think a fair bit of misunderstanding stems from different edition sources.

Add to that the fact that Azalin is inhabiting Irik's bones now, and he wouldn't really want Irik back, because that would leave him with no body.

There is no mention of Irik's body whatsoever in 2nd edition sources, which would include King of the Dead and Lord of the Necropolis (as well as I Strahd: The War Against Azalin), and especially From the Shadows.

In fact, the only mention that I recall of Irik's body, from any source, is in the Secrets of the Dread Realms, I think, where the phrase "Azalin wears Irik's bones" is thrown in once, with no further comment, e.g. how the body could be in Ravenloft if Irik died in Greyhawk. Also, the fact that From the Shadows says it's doubtful whether the ghost of Irik in the crypt is the real thing or not - if the actual body of the boy is in the crypt itself, presumably that would answer the question fairly fastish.

In any case, liches can inhabit a broad array of corpses. Azalin in Roots of Evil is not sentimental in the slightest about which body he occupies - he happily shunts his phylactery over to Castle Ravenloft just so he can inhabit Anebroun's corpse. If it's a purely logistical issue, losing Irik's body is irrelevant. It's probably more of a sentimental or pride issue.

Azalin is egotistical. He wouldn't ask someone else to do something; he'd do it himself. Doesn't matter, if game mechanic-wise, Azalin cannot cast divine spells. He wouldn't accept that; he'd find a way to do it.

If that's your personal canon, then that's fine and I respect it. But, if you're speaking in terms of general objective representations in official products, it appears to be otherwise: Azalin is not above recruiting clerics to cast spells for him. One of the spells listed in Nova Arcanum (Misty Summons? something with mist in the title) in the Forbidden Lore boxed set says specifically that both Strahd and Azalin have high-level cleric servitors who will cast that spell for them.

But then again, those are 2nd edition sources, which don't appear to have as broad a readership as 3rd edition sources (understandably so - the 2nd ed. books are now maybe twenty years in the past?).

Oh bonus fact: the room that causes Azalin pain is the Room of Life in Avernus. The resurrection spell probably would work better if cast there (i.e. it would work at all) but he suffers positive energy damage there, as an undead. Zilfer may know this already but I thought I'd just throw the name in there in case it makes discussion easier.

[Ryan Naylor]

The wearing Irik's bones thing is from Death Undaunted.

[Zilfer]

Room of life, ok never knew that room was positive energy!!!! o.o'.....

I thought perhaps it would hurt everyone that wandered into it but i guess that makes sense. Is it detailed in whichever adventure they have to journey through castle avernus? I've never looked at that adventure as of yet.

[Mortavius]

As usual, I think a fair bit of misunderstanding stems from different edition sources.

There is no mention of Irik's body whatsoever in 2nd edition sources, which would include King of the Dead and Lord of the Necropolis (as well as I Strahd: The War Against Azalin), and especially From the Shadows.

In fact, the only mention that I recall of Irik's body, from any source, is in the Secrets of the Dread Realms, I think, where the phrase "Azalin wears Irik's bones" is thrown in once, with no further comment, e.g. how the body could be in Ravenloft if Irik died in Greyhawk. Also, the fact that From the Shadows says it's doubtful whether the ghost of Irik in the crypt is the real thing or not - if the actual body of the boy is in the crypt itself, presumably that would answer the question fairly fastish.

I don't think it's so much a factor of different edition sources as much as a factor of older Ravenloft info vs. newer material.

You are correct that there is no mention in 2E, because the last canon reference to Azalin in 2E was the Requiem set, where he was destroyed. When he was brought back, his essence was channelled into his son's corpse in Avernus. This is detailed in the most depth in the adventure Death Undaunted, as Ryan mentioned, a free download on this site.

However, it's also mentioned in a few spots in Azalin's write-up in Gazetteer II.

Azalin is egotistical. He wouldn't ask someone else to do something; he'd do it himself. Doesn't matter, if game mechanic-wise, Azalin cannot cast divine spells. He wouldn't accept that; he'd find a way to do it.

If that's your personal canon, then that's fine and I respect it. But, if you're speaking in terms of general objective representations in official products, it appears to be otherwise: Azalin is not above recruiting clerics to cast spells for him. One of the spells listed in Nova Arcanum (Misty Summons? something with mist in the title) in the Forbidden Lore boxed set says specifically that both Strahd and Azalin have high-level cleric servitors who will cast that spell for them.

But then again, those are 2nd edition sources, which don't appear to have as broad a readership as 3rd edition sources (understandably so - the 2nd ed. books are now maybe twenty years in the past?).

Well, I think there may be some errors there. First off, Misty Summons is a wizard spell, and there's no reason Azalin couldn't cast it himself. Secondly, I don't put much stock in one older source against a plethora of newer others.

There's no denying that the characters of Ravenloft evolved over the years, and some changed their personalities in subtle ways. I have no doubt that perhaps Forbidden Lore made a reference to Azalin having a cleric that can cast a spell for him. But it doesn't jive with the current Azalin.

The guy is a control freak. When it became clear that his son was not going to live the way he wanted, he executed the boy himself. Rather than give up his rule to anyone else, he became undead. Before that, he siphoned life from others to extend his own so he could continue doing his work. He lost his crown during the Requiem, and even though its not a powerful magic item, he still maintains an illusion of it because it's the symbol of his authority, and the loss of that chafes at him. Even his curse is designed around this. He can't learn new magic. And that hurts him because he wants to learn new magic for the control he thinks it will give him. The more spells he has access to, the more options he has, the more control he can get.

There's more to it than this of course; like any good NPC he's more than one dimensional. Azalin also desires power which dovetails into his curse.

[Ryan Naylor]

A lot of these are also differences between novels and game rules, which don't always jibe well.

[HuManBing]

Regarding Death Undaunted: I really should read that adventure more closely. That's the unfinished manuscript adventure, as I recall, and it seemed on skim-through to be a damn good one too. Good enough that I was greatly distressed they never actually finished it with maps and illustrations and everything.

In any case, for whatever it's worth (and in my opinion, it's not worth much), the canonical spell from Nova Arcanum p.30 was "Living Ward". The literal text says:

Strahd Von Zarovich has a high-level priest minion able to cast this spell for him should he ever need it. The same is true for Azalin. Being undead, both of these dark lords are immune to the spell effects.

There were a lot of other points arguing over what canon should control - earlier stuff or later stuff. I'm not going to try to sway the reader one way or another, but it's largely because I think the argument is missing a key point: canon is never going to be a preferable choice when the GM can make up their own personal material. When a thread solicits ideas, I immediately switch off the "well, you can't do that because canon says otherwise" mindset, and turn on the "here's how I like to break from canon - maybe you can use this yourself in your campaigns" mindset instead.

Quite separately, as a purely philosophical issue, there are plenty of examples in society of earlier sources controlling over later ones. (Law is an especially clear example of this.) But there are also plenty of examples in society of LATER sources controlling. (Science, which is an inherently iterative process.) So both approaches could work... if you care about canon.

I used to be a stickler for canon when I first joined this site and I intentionally read up on all the canon so I could "have a better Ravenloft experience". Now, almost a decade later, I've taken a very different view. First, that "official canon" is really nothing more than "salaried homebrew". The folks who wrote it are smart and creative, but ultimately the main difference between them and any other conscientious, well-read GM is the fact that they got paid for writing the materials. It doesn't mean they're infallible, free from outside distractions, or that they had mystical knowledge of the Single Best Way when they wrote it. It also certainly doesn't mean they know what's best for my gaming group better than I do myself.

Accordingly, I have abandoned the "canon über alles" approach of my misspent youth and I shamelessly rewrite whatever I damn well please to suit my players and my own tastes. And I'm a firm proponent of doing so on these boards (most of my started threads recently are rewrite-themed threads). I'll happily speak out to affirm and support anybody else who does so. Especially those who start off a thread with a post asking us for "our ideas" on a topic.

Creativity > Canon, every time.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I would agree that Azalin is a control freak, but he is also a master of delegation. He has swarms of semi-autonomous underlings, moreso than any other darklord we know of. (Kargat, The Eternal Order, Vassaliches, a dragon, a series of imp familiars, ghosts, vampires, a banshee, human barons and reeves, etc, etc.) Him contracting out a divine caster to cast a spell he can't would be well within his character as I see it. But he is also quite full of himself, and it might be a matter of pride to resurrect Irik himself. Also, being one of the foremost Knowledge (Ravenloft) rank-holders he's probably well aware of the chance of a resurrection spell to backfire, and would want to eliminate that possibility.

(Ryan's probably right that the "real" reason is that novel writers write novels with varying care for the game rules and vice versa. But the fun part is reconciling "what we know" from the various sources)

[Mortavius]

Good point Ron. Of course, in the other direction, having a ton of henchmen represents another form of control. Actually, thinking about it, I remember reading somewhere that the Eternal Order was all just an experiment in societal control, one that didn't work as well as Azalin wanted.

HuManBing, I agree with you that creativity and the DM's direction is the best option whenever a choice is presented; no arguments there. But Zilfer wasn't asking for that, he wanted to know the canon facts about the character.

[HuManBing]

I probably fixated on a different part of his post - where he was asking us why Azalin doesn't get a cleric to cast things for him, and asking us for "our ideas".

For what it's worth, I do have a named semi-canonical NPC helping Azalin out by casting priestly spells. I think if you do a search for Mazrikoth you'll find my variations on thin canon. In my work, he's the face man of the Eternal Order, and although he is similar to Azalin in the sense that he's undead, he differs from Azalin in the fact that he relishes social contact and interacting with the living. This makes him ideal for agitprop and social engineering, whereas Azalin is more of an aloof administrator figure in my campaign.

But my campaign is also significantly lower-magic than the standard DnD setting, even Darkon. So I get around the resurrection issue by simply saying it is extremely high level magic, similar in expense and complexity to a modern nation discovering the cure for cancer or building an atomic weapon. Sure, Azalin COULD do it but it would be an immense distraction, and he would have to neglect statecraft for a good while... When he has other magical things of greater urgency to research, that particular project has to fall by the wayside.

Plus, its use is extremely limited. Anybody else that Azalin wants to "bring back", e.g. for interrogation or consultation, he could probably accomplish in a passable fashion by raising them as undead and commanding them at that point. The extra benefits of resurrection are probably something he only cares to give to Irik, and if you're doing all this for one person, it may not be worth it when many other pressing matters are clamoring for your attention.

In my campaign, Azalin's ultimate goal is still to escape Ravenloft (in acknowledged contradiction of Third edition canon) and compared to that, the resurrection of Irik isn't much of a priority. Why struggle against the Demiplane's extra weird physics and magical limitations when you could attempt to leave it altogether and pursue your research unfeterred elsewhere?

[Zilfer]

Yeah I went from cannonish area back out to the what if category. I was really asking for the opinions of why he didn't do something and all are welcome here.

Somehow I think it would be interesting to have Azalin break out of Ravenloft and be the bad guy in the main campaign only to get flung back into ravenloft. xD

I'm glad I got large responses to the topic , being that Azalin is one of my favorite subjects.

Question, does anyone use Firan in their campaigns? The version that is split from Azalin like in the books?

Second, When I look for the Alchemist for Mordent research I'm doing It goes to Azalin while the book talks about a possible discarded Humanity of Strahd. (Oh god that sounds like Dark Souls) I think I've seen around here that GAZ III got that whole deal messed up but i'm not quiet sure I've figured it out. Was Azalin the Alchemist in that story as the Wiki leads me to believe....?

[Mortavius]

Was Azalin the Alchemist in that story as the Wiki leads me to believe....?

No, the Alchemist was initially portrayed as a human, good version of Strahd...and from there on in it gets really muddled.