Carrionettes and The Created - Questions

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

OK, I realize this is short notice, but I'm unexpectedly running The Created this weekend. Of course I'm modifying the heck out of it because, let's face it: Creepy factor 10, playability factor 5 at best. But anyway, some questions.

1) what happens when a carrionette's host body is killed? The Denizens of Dread writeup says to use Magic Jar as the model, but doesn't say what level of caster. This presents two problems: In the spell as written, the caster's spirit returns to the jar if it's within 10'/level, otherwise it dies. And the RCS alters the spell so you need to make a Will save in this case to get back in the jar and avoid becoming an undead trio of Host Body, Original Body, and Ghost in the Jar. Since there's no Jar involved here, just a body swap, this all becomes problematic. I assume the brains switch back if the host body is close enough to the puppet body, but how close is close enough?

2) What exactly happens to the adults of Odiare? The module says that Maligno and friends kill the ones in the theater and then hunt down the rest. But it also says that the carrionettes who can do so (i.e. not Maligno) possess a bunch of them and go have fun on the town. I guess they only kill some? (also, what do they do with the bodies? There's only one in the theater. Are they in town somewhere? Or did they have time to dump them outside town before the domain formed?) And where are the puppet bodies with the souls of the possessed adults trapped in them? The PCs-as-puppets are the only ones that get put into the toy shop. In any case, by the canon ending, all the adults are eventually dead, yet the theater is burned down. If the PCs suceed in burning down the theater, with Maligno in it... then what? The module was obviously intended as a one-shot, and the carrionettes all become lifeless when Maligno does. But, Maligno comes back when Guiseppe repairs him, and presumably so do the rest. Was there a second purge of adults after the events of the module? Did the other carrionettes willingly give up their human bodies?

3) What should Guiseppe be doing between the time Maligno hustles him out of the theater and the end of the module? He's not really heard from again until the aftermath. And he doesn't go to the shop because the PCs would find him there when they become dolls.


Basically, I'm trying to extract the cool bits here into a coherent plot, and running into trouble....


Anyone have experience with this adventure, or ideas on how to run it?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Okay, i don't have the module, so bear with me:

1) I'd use the minimum caster level to cast magic jar, and leave out the undead trio option--carrionettes are monstrous enough without it. If they are beyond the required distance, they die permanently, which would partly explain why they keep the PC's around as puppets--they don't know the exact distance, but they know the puppets can give them another chance to "play" if they die. How did they learn this? Trial and error, using the bodies of the adults (see below). Also, I'd consider the roleplaying spin I want to give them when you kill a host body. Are they like the necromancer in Death Ascendant who considers each host body like disposable one-shot tool? Or do they break down and cry like a child who has lost a favorite toy?

2) The adults of Odiare were killed or captured in stages. Here's my suggestions:
Stage 1: Maligno and his band kill a large group of adults in the theater. In the process, the carrionettes discover their ability to possess adults, but most of these are short-lived.
Stage 2: Maligno is curious about this ability, and indulges their whims. Using the new bodies as disguises, they hunt down the rest of the adults in town, killing some and capturing the rest.
Stage 3: Maligno discovers he cannot possess anyone, and he becomes jealous. In a tantrum, he kills the other carrionettes bodies. They figure out some of the rules whereby some of them get second chances, while others are gone for good.
Stage 4+: Carrionette society develops: using trickery, possession and teamwork, the carrionettes track down adults as bodies. Using malicious jokes, feigned accidents and other passive-aggressive tactics, Maligno kills these bodies. The carrionettes develop habits to insure that these deaths are not permanent.

3) Don't know much about Giuseppe before he became a madman, but if I was to guess, I'd say Maligno used more and more transparent excuses to keep G out of the way, until Giuseppe discovered too much and Maligno had to paralyze him. For good measure, have him paralyzed while looking out on the town through a window or open door, stuck in that moment of horror, so he can watch the destruction but do nothing about it. Then, after his soul is crushed, a possessed adult comes to him with the scorched remains of his errant son, pulls out the needles, and begs him to make it all better. Traumatized by grief and unable to show his face in the village, he is consumed by one thought: this time he'll make a good boy.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

1) I'd use the minimum caster level to cast magic jar,

the problem there is that the minimum (or even the maximum) is rather short distance. 70' is the minimum. That's not a big deal if you've got a gem you can pocket or wear on a chain. But it's kind of hard to keep a captive puppet under wraps and quiet at that distance. Then again.... looking at the map, Odiare is only 260' x310'! Maybe it's not so hard... As long as you stick to the same quadrant of the town as your body is in, you'll be ok... Who's going to hear a puppet screaming in a sack two buildings away? hmm....

and leave out the undead trio option--carrionettes are monstrous enough without it.

Agreed. Undead don't fit the "creepy puppet" genre so well.

Also, I'd consider the roleplaying spin I want to give them when you kill a host body. Are they like the necromancer in Death Ascendant who considers each host body like disposable one-shot tool? Or do they break down and cry like a child who has lost a favorite toy?

Yeah, here we get into another inconsistency in the module. The non-Maligno carrionettes are described as being flat and emotionless. But they are also described as revelling in their new bodies. Does being in a human body "wake up" some sort of emotion in them? (on the flipside, PCs forced into puppet bodies don't have their emotions dulled or affected at all.)

2) The adults of Odiare were killed or captured in stages. Here's my suggestions:
Stage 1: Maligno and his band kill a large group of adults in the theater. In the process, the carrionettes discover their ability to possess adults, but most of these are short-lived.
Stage 2: Maligno is curious about this ability, and indulges their whims. Using the new bodies as disguises, they hunt down the rest of the adults in town, killing some and capturing the rest.
Stage 3: Maligno discovers he cannot possess anyone, and he becomes jealous. In a tantrum, he kills the other carrionettes bodies. They figure out some of the rules whereby some of them get second chances, while others are gone for good.
Stage 4+: Carrionette society develops: using trickery, possession and teamwork, the carrionettes track down adults as bodies. Using malicious jokes, feigned accidents and other passive-aggressive tactics, Maligno kills these bodies. The carrionettes develop habits to insure that these deaths are not permanent.

Not a bad sequence, but it doesn't gibe with the module. I'm not above changing it, but I have VERY limited time to prep, so I need to stick mostly to the sequence presented there:
(no time to make a new journal for Giuseppe)

The carrionettes discover the possession ability
1) Maligno tries and fails to possess Guiseppe.
2) At the theater, the carrionettes lure the children to the front, and paralyze the adults, carrying them out (To where?).
3) Maligno tells the kids lies about why their parents left and sends them out.
4) The carrionettes bring back one adult, Maligno tries to possess him and fails, having him killed and left there.
5) The PC's enter as Maligno is instructing the other carrionettes to go out into town and possess the remaining adults
6) Carrionettes attack, Maligno and Guiseppe flee. (last time we see Guiseppe)
7) PCs investigate town and get picked off and possessed
Carrionettes lure PCs to Toy Shop to finish off any that aren't possessed.
9) PC's wake up in Toy Shop as puppets, escape, find their bodies, track down Maligno and face him, probably destroying him.

Obviously, this is a bit of a railroad plot, and I'll let the PCs hop the tracks if they don't follow this sequence, but that's the basic gist of the plot.

So, despite the current Odiare we see in later products (Domains of Dread, RL3E, etc.) there's no mass killing of the adults. Actually the adventure summary in the front of the module doesn't even gibe with the sequence seen in the rest module. There it says they "slew" all the adults at the theater, and it also puts Maligno learning he can't possess Guiseppe after the theater incident. But Guiseppe's journal clearly puts those events in the opposite order.

Long story short: the module is self-contradictory, so I'm going with what happens in the "bulk" of the module, and trying to make the rest fit.

I suppose the paralyzed adults could be thrown in one of the 3 warehouses in town, and I could forget about killing the adults. That gives the module a potential "happy ending" where only a few adults die, the rest are saved, and the town goes back to "normal" aside from now being an IoT and no longer connected to the rest of Italy. But who wants happy endings in Ravenloft?

I'm perfectly happy with a disposable Odiare. I don't plan to use it again, so they can all go back to Gothic Italy at the end if that makes sense, too. With or without adults. I just don't want to get bogged down in "What do we do with all these orphaned children? We can't just leave them here in the Mists!"

Maybe Maligno keeps trying, one after another, killing the ones that don't work (i.e. all of them)... So he could potentially kill a lot of them while the PCs are investigating. ??? I dunno....

For good measure, have him paralyzed while looking out on the town through a window or open door, stuck in that moment of horror, so he can watch the destruction but do nothing about it.

Ooh, creepy image, I like it!

I haven't mentioned yet how I'm purposely twisting the adventure to fit my campaign*, but I need to stick in a scene of the PCs meeting with G in the middle/end section (in the 7-9 range), so this is a great way to do it. They can find him in that state and unparalyze him. Maybe as part of step 9.


*I'll explain in a spoiler box, so it can be skipped easily by those who don't care:

VIEW CONTENT:

See my idea here:
http://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/vi ... f=1&t=7142
My mad clockmaker, Gustav Malvoni, (creator of Vir Stannum, the clockwork man) created one of these "Doomscapes" (really need a better name...) as he was killed by Ivan Dilisnya's thugs. When it burst, a fragment of him spun off into Gothic Earth and was reborn as Guiseppe (much like Tatyana was reborn on Faerun as Anna in Vampire of the Mists). The parallels are just too perfect to ignore: Kindly Borcan/Italian craftsman named G____, evil golem "son," etc. So "where's Guiseppe?" is more than a theoretical issue. They need to talk to him, otherwise it's pointless.

Also, I don't like the initial epsiode with "Knuckles" and the incredibly obvious murder investigation, nor the "go in the theater, get called back out, go back in and everyone's missing" bit, so I'm starting "in media res", which makes sense because the party is coming from Ravenloft, not Gothic Earth, so Malgno's AoUD should already have happened. The PC's enter around "step 4".

ETA: I found one online campaign journal where the module was used: http://davidcwood.com/adnd/campaign/created.php

Anyone know of any others? (other people's experience is always helpful to plunder)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

In other news... the carrionette stats in DoDread break all sorts of rules, and generally suck overall. I had to rebuild them from the ground up, almost.

I also advanced them to 4HD. Even so, making them a credible threat to my level 10 party is going to be tough. I think the wizard will give them the most trouble, especially with his Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat, he is going to be tough to capture. (I know the module says to cheat here, and I may if I have to, but I want my cheating to at least be believable.)

Any pointers on that subject would be great. I don't want to metagame too much, since the carrionettes aren't too bright. (for instance, Dimensional Jaunt only works if you can see where you want to go, so if they blind him somehow, they can throw a net on him and go to town with their needles. But they aren't going to know to blind him.)

[Zilfer]

In other news... the carrionette stats in DoDread break all sorts of rules, and generally suck overall. I had to rebuild them from the ground up, almost.

I also advanced them to 4HD. Even so, making them a credible threat to my level 10 party is going to be tough. I think the wizard will give them the most trouble, especially with his Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat, he is going to be tough to capture. (I know the module says to cheat here, and I may if I have to, but I want my cheating to at least be believable.)

Any pointers on that subject would be great. I don't want to metagame too much, since the carrionettes aren't too bright. (for instance, Dimensional Jaunt only works if you can see where you want to go, so if they blind him somehow, they can throw a net on him and go to town with their needles. But they aren't going to know to blind him.)

Poke him in the eyes?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

In other news... the carrionette stats in DoDread break all sorts of rules, and generally suck overall. I had to rebuild them from the ground up, almost.

Share? Please? I'll be needing them soon. My PC's are going to get their first trip inside Darkon soon--destination Il Aluk!--and to survive the Shroud, their "patron" will be sending them in as carrionettes.

I also advanced them to 4HD. Even so, making them a credible threat to my level 10 party is going to be tough. I think the wizard will give them the most trouble, especially with his Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat, he is going to be tough to capture. (I know the module says to cheat here, and I may if I have to, but I want my cheating to at least be believable.)

Any pointers on that subject would be great. I don't want to metagame too much, since the carrionettes aren't too bright. (for instance, Dimensional Jaunt only works if you can see where you want to go, so if they blind him somehow, they can throw a net on him and go to town with their needles. But they aren't going to know to blind him.)

First, I'd imagine that Dimensional Jaunt would mean abandoning the rest of the party, no? So when he uses that, have them redouble their efforts on all the other party members immediately. Fudge THOSE rolls. Then let him make a Horror check to realize the consequences. If it's a genuine abandonment, that may be a powers check.

Then, let them realize he's a serious threat, and start getting crafty out of self-preservation. Dark rooms and clutter are going to be very beneficial for them--concealment and cover--and may foul up his dimensional jaunt by accident.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

In other news... the carrionette stats in DoDread break all sorts of rules, and generally suck overall. I had to rebuild them from the ground up, almost.

Share? Please? I'll be needing them soon. My PC's are going to get their first trip inside Darkon soon--destination Il Aluk!--and to survive the Shroud, their "patron" will be sending them in as carrionettes.

Will do when I have the chance. I actually found some better ones in Dragon #339. But rather than start over and advance those to 4HD, I stuck mostly with what I had and cherry-picked a few things from that version. Awesome idea, by the way. Will they be willing to risk handing their bodies over to carrionettes for the length of the mission, though?

First, I'd imagine that Dimensional Jaunt would mean abandoning the rest of the party, no?

No, despite the name which sounds like leaving for another dimension, it's only a short distance (20') at-will teleport (standard action). (Think Nightcrawler, from X-Men). Pretty much the only way to stop it, aside from Dimension Anchor or similar powerful magic, is to take away sight or take away standard actions. (daze, stun, petrify, etc.) So I'm primarily thinking about the "jump down fro the roof with a net" strategem. Doesn't work on him, because he can *BAMF!* out of it.

Not a big deal, and it may not come to that if I manage to get him away from the party earlier and replace him. I came up with a few contingency ideas.

So when he uses that, have them redouble their efforts on all the other party members immediately. Fudge THOSE rolls. Then let him make a Horror check to realize the consequences. If it's a genuine abandonment, that may be a powers check.

Well, he may well "abandon" them by flying away. (one of his favorite polymorph forms is an imp). But it would likely be more of a retreat, regroup, and rescue. I don't think he'd simply abandon them. But I came up with a few fun ideas for flying toys that could be dispatched to chase him down if it comes to that. And once he's in imp form, throwing a sack over him would stop the teleporting and not be too metagamey, I think. (The carrionettes aren't masterminds that know the rules of Dimensional Jaunt, so it would be cheesy, IMHO, for them to focus on blinding him or otherwise stopping him from Jaunting. But catching a tiny imp in a sack seems like a logical course of action whether you know he can Jaunt or not. You'd get to capture the guy and knock him out of the sky in one fell swoop, then the ground forces swarm in and poke the sack full of needles until he's good and paralyzed.
Of course, I need to figure out the rules for jumping off a flying toy and throwing a sack over an imp.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Awesome idea, by the way. Will they be willing to risk handing their bodies over to carrionettes for the length of the mission, though?

Not sure. I'm picturing they get a package in the post from their mysterious patron. It has a smaller package inside, with instructions that the smaller one must only be opened by one of them, alone in a sealed and locked room. The smaller package contains a potion and the smallest box yet--rattling. The bottle says that the person in the sealed room must drink this and then immediately open the box. The potion is a sleeping poison that should take effect just after the PC has been possessed, rendering the carrionette unconscious in the PC's body.

After that, they can decide whether they still like their mysterious patron.

So I'm primarily thinking about the "jump down fro the roof with a net" strategem. Doesn't work on him, because he can *BAMF!* out of it.

Okay, but where would they get a net? Jump down from the roof to put a bag over his head.

So when he uses that, have them redouble their efforts on all the other party members immediately. Fudge THOSE rolls. Then let him make a Horror check to realize the consequences. If it's a genuine abandonment, that may be a powers check.

Well, he may well "abandon" them by flying away. (one of his favorite polymorph forms is an imp). But it would likely be more of a retreat, regroup, and rescue. I don't think he'd simply abandon them.

Okay, but how long do they have against the others while he's regrouping? If they lay on the steam, he may quickly be the only one left, and may be led to blame himself.

(The carrionettes aren't masterminds that know the rules of Dimensional Jaunt, so it would be cheesy, IMHO, for them to focus on blinding him or otherwise stopping him from Jaunting.

Okay, but how smart to they need to be to figure out he'd be easier to fight blind? It may have nothing to do with dimensional jaunt, if he's slinging ranged spells or weapons. Heck, have them jump down on the fighter and put a bag over HIS head, to show that it's a common tactic they use with everyone.

Blinding a foe is always a good idea. That they don't know all the benefits of doing so doesn't mean they won't do it.

Can he jaunt out of a grapple? I don't know about dimensional jaunt, but teleport and dimension door allow for other willing creatures to go with you. If they are climbing all over him, and he uses Dimension Door, all they have to do is be "willing" and they'll go with him. Is it not that way with this ability?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

After that, they can decide whether they still like their mysterious patron.

doesn't begin to describe it.

Okay, but where would they get a net?

It's in the module.

Okay, but how long do they have against the others while he's regrouping? If they lay on the steam, he may quickly be the only one left, and may be led to blame himself.

Yup, that's fine. Angst is always good. It's just that if he escapes for too long, he misses the best part of the module: the Puppet-PC's in the Toy Shop scene.

Okay, but how smart to they need to be to figure out he'd be easier to fight blind?

Exactly. That's why I'm leaning toward stuff like that, that works against Jaunt, but not specifically against Jaunt. I mean, I don't want them having an overly convenient wand of Dimensional Anchor. So the tactics should be non-magical, and good in general. (but also good in specific. ) Bags on heads fits the bill..

Heck, have them jump down on the fighter and put a bag over HIS head, to show that it's a common tactic they use with everyone.

Ooh, good idea.

Is it not that way with this ability?

No, it's not. It's a very limited teleport. You can't bring any creatures at all except a familiar. Usually a downside, but in the case of escaping a grapple, a bonus. It's a supernatural ability, no Attack of Opportunity. The rules aren't 100% clear on whether you can do a supernatural ability in a grapple or not, but most interpretations seem to say yes.

ETA: BTW, this feat is from WotC's Complete Mage. It has a very "3.9e" feel to it, in that it reduces the wizard's "daily powers" (by keeping a spell-slot filled "in reserve") in exchange for a weak but repeatable "at-will power". I like it for flavor purposes (the character is giomorgo, and since level 1 has dreamed of controlling the mists. Since teleportation in Ravenloft is mist-flavored, it fits that after years of trying he finally learned some limited form of mist-travel) but it does cause trouble (or at least worry) when planning adventures sometimes.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

One of the sneakier ways I found for a carrionette to jab somebody it was unlikely to hit in conventional combat was to have it hide inside an unarmored character's backpack that'd been left unwatched for a few minutes. Soon as the hidden carrionette heard its fellows attacking the party, it jabbed the backpack's wearer through the canvas.

Don't know if you'd want to stretch the limits of the Dimensional Jaunt spell to allow it to move a fairly small and willing construct that's hiding in the jaunter's backpack, but...

[Zilfer]

If it's a mist power aren't those finecky?(sorry don't know how to spell that word) Sometimes maybe it won't work or won't find himself where he wanted to go as well. (just putting it out there)

[BedrockBrendan]

I ran The Created again last spring, and basically had to revise the module in order to run it. With the adults, The module seemed to be the victim of bad editing. My guess is they started out having the adults all get killed ,then added in the carrionettes taking them over. And as a result the module has some inconsistent instructions on this front. I just went with them slaughtering many of the adults and trying to take over the rest.

The other big issue with The Created is the railroading. It assumes players will be in the places the module assumes during key events . It says guiseppe shouldn't die no matter how many points of damage he suffers. I just ignored this stuff and worked around it.

that aside it is a very fun module if you make it your own, and has some great encounter set ups. If the pcs do happen to have their bodies taken over, the encounter in the toy store is incredible.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

If the pcs do happen to have their bodies taken over, the encounter in the toy store is incredible.

Yeah, I was hoping it would be. But it didn't live up to my expectations 100%. I think it was a combination of me being too literal about when the toys would try to stop them, (By the time the toys mobilized it was almost too late to stop them.) and the fact that the hour was getting late, and everyone was starting to get tired at that point. but overall things went well. We just didn't get to finish. I'm glad we hashed out some possibilities here, because I did have to use of of the contingencies we discussed. Campaign Journal entry to follow soon I hope....