Of kings and dukes and counts

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Rock of the Fraternity
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Of kings and dukes and counts

Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

This is an idea that's been niggling at the back of my mind for a while now.

In the Core, there is one individual known as 'king'. This is Azalin, lord of the largest domain in the Core. Many of the other darklords (as well as some far less despicable people who wield political power) bear noble titles like 'duke', 'count', 'baron'. There are, of course, other titles, like those Borcan ones for landholders with lots of influence, the Kartakan 'meistersinger' and the title that Drakov fit himself with.

Imagine how different life would be in the Core, should the DP have arranged it somehow that there were an actual hierarchy in the land, which all people would recognize. I don't mean that they might've made it so that the king Azalin would automatically be in control of the various barons and dukes, but false history could have been altered.

What if false history reflected that the various dukes, counts and barons run their little lands because they have a royal decree to do so? By that way of thinking, Azalin could be king of the Core. As a wise monarch, he is using a decentralized style of government, allowing his lesser nobles to rule parts of the Core. (Again, this is false history, and many of the darklords would know it's a sham, but the common people would believe it implicitly.)

How would Ravenloft (or at least the Core) be different if there were a unified codex of law for the entire Core? If there were political and sociological conventions that suggest an overarching power structure for the whole continent and its outlying islands, rather than just a mob of independent states snapping at each other where they can.

Drakov might be seen as an upstart rebel against the proper order of the world; a petty mercenary captain who stole a piece of land he has no right to and is misusing it, inviting the wrath of the unified state.

How else would the Core be different, if false history were unified in such a way?
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Post by Zettaijin »

I don't think Stradh would be very happy to be considered an underling of Azalin.
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Post by alhoon »

Or anyone else I think. :) They would have rebelled looong ago. Also many of them were there before Darkon.

A cluster though, where the King holds a large domain and the Dukes to smaller ones is a nice idea. I have made similar clusters in the past.
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Post by Le Noir Faineant »

Rock deserves to be put on a shield and carried around the swamp borders three times for this idea.

Best RL concept alteration I've read in years, and so obvious. :D
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Post by Nevermorrow »

This reminds one of a new player I had a few years ago -- new then, that is. When the gang were traveling through Barovia, one of his questions was, "Why is Strahd a count instead of a king?" Another player gave the pat answer, "Because Stoker designated Dracula a count in Transylvania."

I pretended to ignore this little conversation, but after the session was over I wasted little time looking up exactly what Vlad Tepes's actual title would have been. Turns out it's "Voivode", which can be translated as "prince", but also as "count". Two things to keep in mind:

1) In Europe, the Church had a great deal of power in these things. Taking the title of "King" without an official coronation from the Church was blasphemous. Oen could not be a true King without the blessing of the Church. this is why several generations in a row could rule some countries and never have a higher title than Prince Regent.

2) What you're describing is the English system of monarchy and aristocracy. There's no such thing as a European system; not every country in Euroe used the same titles or system of noble ranks.
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Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

Rafael wrote:Rock deserves to be put on a shield and carried around the swamp borders three times for this idea.

Best RL concept alteration I've read in years, and so obvious. :D
Aww, thanks. ^^ It's kind of you to say so.
SpiritCaller wrote:1) In Europe, the Church had a great deal of power in these things. Taking the title of "King" without an official coronation from the Church was blasphemous. Oen could not be a true King without the blessing of the Church. this is why several generations in a row could rule some countries and never have a higher title than Prince Regent.
Hmmmm, if my idea of a unified sytem of law and hierarchy were adopted, this kind of consideration would add some real venom to the conflict between the various larger faiths of the Core, wouldn't it? Which Church would be entitled to give such a high title ...?
SpiritCaller wrote:What you're describing is the English system of monarchy and aristocracy. There's no such thing as a European system; not every country in Euroe used the same titles or system of noble ranks.
Oh? Ah, well. My mistake. ^^
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Plenty of regions in Europe were seldom, if ever, unified enough to bring all their nobles under a single hierarchy. Think of Germany or Italy, each of which spent nearly all of its post-Roman, pre-modern history as a fragmented patchwork of duchies, principalities, city-states, or whatever other designations the local rulers had the nerve to declare they were. I think of the Core in those terms.

If you want to do this IYC, that's fine ... but it seems like an awfully big handout of power and prestige to Azalin, that nobody -- not even him, as being responsible for more territory would constitute yet another distraction from his escape plans -- would much appreciate.

It might be more interesting if false history claimed that Darcalus -- Azalin's false-history precessor -- had been King over the entire Core, but became so corrupt and neglectful of the southern lands that many of his outlying realms (i.e. the other domains) got fed up and declared their independence. This unrest left him distracted and vulnerable, allowing the outlander Azalin to get the drop on and assassinate the old tyrant, to the relief and approval of the Darkonians. Other domains were likewise happy to have King Darcalus out of the picture, but their resident nobles have acquired a taste for autonomy, so have since resisted being brought back under the authority of the Iron Crown.
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Post by Nevermorrow »

Rock wrote:Hmmmm, if my idea of a unified sytem of law and hierarchy were adopted, this kind of consideration would add some real venom to the conflict between the various larger faiths of the Core, wouldn't it? Which Church would be entitled to give such a high title ...?
Yea, it would. You could even have the different sects of Ezra turning against each other with political power at stake like this.
Rock wrote:
SpiritCaller wrote:What you're describing is the English system of monarchy and aristocracy. There's no such thing as a European system; not every country in Euroe used the same titles or system of noble ranks.
Oh? Ah, well. My mistake. ^^
I didn't say it wouldn't work. You could do some research and fix that. Just remember that not every domain is going to go along with it; as someone else mentioned, it's hard to picture Strahd holding to Azalin as his king. It's hard to picture several darklords treating another as their king.
Rotipher of the FoS wrote:Plenty of regions in Europe were seldom, if ever, unified enough to bring all their nobles under a single hierarchy. Think of Germany or Italy, each of which spent nearly all of its post-Roman, pre-modern history as a fragmented patchwork of duchies, principalities, city-states, or whatever other designations the local rulers had the nerve to declare they were. I think of the Core in those terms.
A very, very good point. Making it simply so-and-so is king, everyone else is a noble answering to him may be too cut-and-dry.
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Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

You do remember I wrote that the whole feudal hierarchy would be false history, right? Most darklords would know they weren't Azalin's vassals, but the general populace would believe they were, and there would be a lt of confusion and worry if their local duke or baron 'suddenly' started issuing decrees that were contrary to 'the King's Law' or withholding taxes from the officers of the exchequer. Might be a lot more diplomatic traffic between the various domains, too ...

Considering Dementlieu: while we know that the domain is run by Dominic D'Honaire, the local populace believe they have what amounts to a parliament of the nobility and the wealthy, right? In a Core with a feudal hierarchy, there might be some pressure from branches of the nobility to elect a proper representative of the King's rule: a Marquis of Dementlieu, instead of the Council of Brilliance. Azalin likely can't do too much about the Council from where he is (one wonders whether he'd care too much), but he might occasionally stir the pot for his own amusement by questioning the effectiveness of a council as opposed to a royal representative making decisions by him- or herself.

I wonder whether Mordent would be considered big enough a country to warrant its own noble sub-ruler, or whether it would officially fall under the control of Dementlieu in a feudal hierarchy. The Mayor's position could be maintained, but he'd have to report to government offices in Port-a-Lucine, most likely.

There might be people in Valachan who would be proud of the fact that their Baron had been an agent of the King before he settled down as their ruler. Imagine how nettled Von Kharkov would be at being considered a success story of that sort.
Rotipher of the FoS wrote:It might be more interesting if false history claimed that Darcalus -- Azalin's false-history precessor -- had been King over the entire Core, but became so corrupt and neglectful of the southern lands that many of his outlying realms (i.e. the other domains) got fed up and declared their independence. This unrest left him distracted and vulnerable, allowing the outlander Azalin to get the drop on and assassinate the old tyrant, to the relief and approval of the Darkonians. Other domains were likewise happy to have King Darcalus out of the picture, but their resident nobles have acquired a taste for autonomy, so have since resisted being brought back under the authority of the Iron Crown.
Oooh, I like that. ^^ Hmmm, this might make a fun subject for a QtR article ... Anyone interested in working with me on that?
Last edited by Rock of the Fraternity on Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Rock wrote: Considering Dementlieu: while we know that the domain is run by Dominic D'Honaire, the local populace believe they have what amounts to a parliament of the nobility and the wealthy, right? In a Core with a feudal hierarchy, there might be some pressure from branches of the nobility to elect a proper representative of the King's rule: a Marquis of Dementlieu, instead of the Council of Brilliance.
Or perhaps Guignol is the Marquis of Dementlieu, and the Council of Brilliance are his advisors.

Absolute monarchs are, as a general rule, not too big on elected nobility. Makes too many people wonder how the other nobles got to be that way. ;)
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Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

Nathan of the FoS wrote:Or perhaps Guignol is the Marquis of Dementlieu, and the Council of Brilliance are his advisors.

Absolute monarchs are, as a general rule, not too big on elected nobility. Makes too many people wonder how the other nobles got to be that way. ;)
Exactly; if the Council remains in power, it'd add an element of uncertainty to Dementlieu's political landscape; there'd be bound to be a group or two that's trying to 'return to the traditional ways', be it out of genuine faith in the divine decree of the monarchy or because they're afraid Azalin will curb stomp the whole country some day for breaking away into parliament territory. It'd stir the already unstable pot of Dementlieuse politics and society even more.
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Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Why would anyone be afraid of Azalin if it's so obvious he doesn't control the country, though? I mean, if a large part of the country is in continual armed rebellion and nothing ever seems to happen to them (Falkovnia)...

Also, princes who are not the sons of kings are traditionally independent, so Nova Vaasa wouldn't be under Azalin anyway. And heaven only knows how to explain Hazlan...

Add to which, why wouldn't Strahd just put it about through his numerous underlings that he, at least, is independent and intends to stay that way? He understands their relative situations and has a pretty strong personal inducement to thumb his nose at Azalin if there is some kind of general perception that Azalin is his ruler.
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Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Rock wrote:You do remember I wrote that the whole feudal hierarchy would be false history, right? Most darklords would know they weren't Azalin's vassals, but the general populace would believe they were, and there would be a lt of confusion and worry if their local duke or baron 'suddenly' started issuing decrees that were contrary to 'the King's Law' or withholding taxes from the officers of the exchequer. Might be a lot more diplomatic traffic between the various domains, too ...
Interesting point. Black Box suggests that Azalin walked deliberately into the Mists to get his domain, and I always wondered why Azalin would do such a thing. Was it just about getting the real estate? I can only assume that in his research he missed the whole double-edged darklordship and thought the prisonership would be the only drawback. What if he also did it deliberately because he understood something about false history, that would allow him to usurp power all over the Core by rewriting the histories to make himself the King that all these dukes and counts had to report to? That would be a tempting prospect indeed, to put himself over Strahd even in name only. If he thought that the prisonership was the only drawback, that would be easy enough to circumvent by many means, including some familiar to Azalin from ISTWAA.

Very interesting....
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Post by Zettaijin »

Then again, maybe Azalin simply felt he could break the mists' secret, overthrowing their authority from within and gaining access to greater power in the process.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

In Azalin's defense, he was the first villain to become a darklord by simply walking into the Mists. Up to then, IIRC, all the others had been deposited directly into their domains from other planes. It's possible that Azalin honestly didn't know that walking into the Mists would consign him to a domain. Rather, he might have expected to find himself Paridon or Har'Akir -- places where he could resume his escape-method research without Strahd looking over his shoulder -- just as other Mist-led travelers had, in the prior few decades.
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