mere shadow of its former glory

Discussing all things Ravenloft
Brandi
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Post by Brandi »

Jasper wrote:All the backgrounds had to A- Be written to omit any referance to any 2nd edition product and B- to omit any referance to any out side world by name (Ie: No soth and no Red wizard of Thay)
A is not true, else we wouldn't have mentions of Azenwrath (Children of the Night: the Created; Gaz I sidebar), the Cult of Simon Audaire (Dragon magazine; Gaz III sidebar), or Illhousen's Clinic and the Nightmare Lands (boxed set; Gaz V sidebar).

They did have to drop outside world mentions mainly because Arthaus did not have the rights to those properties, if I remember right; if a Kargatane could take a moment to clarify things I'd appreciate it.
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Post by Mangrum »

Jasper's correct if he means to say that 3rd edition products were written so as not to require the reader to know the 2nd edition material to use them.

As for other settings, we worked under the understanding that we could make use of any core materials, but not any other WotC setting, as that would require a separate license. But on the specifics of that basic understanding, we got incomplete and sometimes wildly contradictory information from those higher up the ladder.

In a few instances, (namely, in Champions of Darkness) authors sometimes didn't respect (or, perhaps, know about) the no-other settings restriction, which led to some gaffes of that supposed arrangement, with no repercussion.

We were also initially forbidden from using the word "demiplane," but that was just a personal decision by our initial developer. Toward the end, I started sticking it back in, just to see what would happen (namely nothing).

On the other hand, the Duo also seemed to shy away from the word "domain," for some reason, which led to the notable overuse (in my opinion) of the substitute "realm."
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

eldritch wrote: Specifically the Ravenloft players handbook and Ravenloft 3rd edtion (setting rulebook), and the Denizens of D. books.
I would consider 4 out of 20 many. that is 20% of the products!


Well, actually it would be 2 out of twenty as you don't count the originals. That's 10%. And there were 21 products so it's actually a little less than that.
midnightcat wrote:
eldritch wrote: in contrast, if you consider the black and red boxes, a major event (the grand Conjunction) happened and much new information added and some was corrected. Domains of Dread was not at all a replacement product rather an updated timeline and more new information, and again corrected some faults. It is considered by many to be the best of the three products. (rather than a nearly identical reprint.)

The reprinting of the Monstrous Compendiums 1&2 was necessary because of the long run of the Ravenloft line and a valuable (nearly essential) product had gone out of print, and the reprinting of Van Richten's guides was hardly superfluous in my opinion because they too had gone out of print and were valuable resources to the DM and they included new information such as commentary by the Weathermay-Foxgrove Twins and a new guide to witches!!
You seem to make excuses for 2nd editon. Arthuas had to recover things for newer player who had never seen a 2nd editon product. Why did TSR have to re-publish the Van richten's guides? They were avaliable, and so were the Ravenloft monster compenduim 1 and 2. as for that matter why reprint all the basic books again for 2nd editon? the the item like the reprinted fighters's handbook ect..were lesser quality. The Red Box set was Needed, but that was becuase the Black Box set, was missing sooo much information.
Actually, the VRGs were mostly out of print by the time the compendiums were released. Out of print but still readily available in most used gaming stores. And the Compendiums were re-printed like the Monstrous Manual because of the shift away from loose leaf monster books.

* * *

I really favour the 3.X line. Not just for rules but for quality as size and content. Look at the page count of most of the new books. They're easily two to three times the size of 2E books (120-ish pages minimum compared to 64). Plus they focus on the land, natives, players and themes opposed to just the darklords with a couple lines on the rest.

Most of the first few adventures and supplements focused entirely on the darklords, most were just single-use adventure hooks for outlanders. The setting was almost entirely set-up for weekend in hell games (come, meet the darklord, kill him/her/it, leave) or escape campaigns. Five-page adventures in Dungeon magazine often had more useful and lasting content than some supplements. The products almost always focused on new lands rather than expand on the many, many already published lands. Adventures occasionally expanded the lands but still tended to focus on outlanders or killing lords.
It took years for the setting to really develop.
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Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

Mangrum wrote:On the other hand, the Duo also seemed to shy away from the word "domain," for some reason, which led to the notable overuse (in my opinion) of the substitute "realm."
I don't think the shying away from Domain is a bad thing, but I agree with the over use of realm. They could have cracked a thesarus!
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Post by Ail »

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:
Mangrum wrote:On the other hand, the Duo also seemed to shy away from the word "domain," for some reason, which led to the notable overuse (in my opinion) of the substitute "realm."
I don't think the shying away from Domain is a bad thing, but I agree with the over use of realm. They could have cracked a thesarus!
In my campaign, I usually write country instead of domain, simply. Domain doesn't seem like a term a native would use.
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Post by Ail »

eldritch wrote:om the new product line.
*superior artwork (in my opinion.)
To be frank, my favourite artwork for the whole line, from those products I have seen, is that of the Van Richten Compendiums in 2nd Edition. In this, I agree with you (art was my first shock in 3E).

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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Ail wrote:Domain doesn't seem like a term a native would use.
I've sometimes had people use that term in-character, most often to talk about wilderness-regions that don't properly qualify as true "countries", in the eyes of more-civilized natives, like Verbrek or the Wildlands. Indeed, to muddy the waters for players who know a little too much about the setting, I've occasionally had NPCs refer to the wilder, less-populated pieces of established game-domains as "domains", creating the false impression that these areas might lie outside a particular darklord's reach (at least, to players who've been abusing their OOC Ravenloft knowledge :twisted:).
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Post by ballsetto »

I play 2E, I just don't have the time or money to spend on any new products let alone an overhaul. If there is a massive new D@D edition I would consider changing but for now I dig the 2E def. the "g(l)ory days"
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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

For stuff like that, I refer to them in geographical terms: The Verbrek Forest, the Forlorn Highlands, etc. The implication being it's such a wild place that no country would claim it.
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eldritch
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Post by eldritch »

David of the FoS wrote:
eldritch wrote: Specifically the Ravenloft players handbook and Ravenloft 3rd edtion (setting rulebook), and the Denizens of D. books.
I would consider 4 out of 20 many. that is 20% of the products!


Well, actually it would be 2 out of twenty as you don't count the originals. That's 10%. And there were 21 products so it's actually a little less than that..
Well I say 20 because VRG to Mists was never printed so if you include that then you might as well start including netbooks etc.
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Post by midnightcat »

eldritch wrote:
David of the FoS wrote:
eldritch wrote: Specifically the Ravenloft players handbook and Ravenloft 3rd edtion (setting rulebook), and the Denizens of D. books.
I would consider 4 out of 20 many. that is 20% of the products!


Well, actually it would be 2 out of twenty as you don't count the originals. That's 10%. And there were 21 products so it's actually a little less than that..
Well I say 20 because VRG to Mists was never printed so if you include that then you might as well start including netbooks etc.
The Big difference between the netbooks and VRG to the Mists, is that the VRG to the mists was going to be an official product. I t wasn't made with the purpose to sell. The Netboks are more of a fanservice by the fans of Ravenloft. Yes VRG to them Mist is not a printed product, but it more official then the Netbooks. Some companies sell thier official D20 products by PDF over the internet, along with the stoe bought copies.
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Re: mere shadow of its former glory

Post by Five »

triceweb:

Yes, we have no bananas.

Also, 7 × 13 = 28. Seriously. Look it up.

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Re: mere shadow of its former glory

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

this thread was necro'd by a spammer, who has since been deleted. (hence Five's post that no longer makes sense because it's referring to a deleted post). I'm going to go ahead and lock it, since I recall some bad blood coming out of it once upon a time. no need to pick at old scabs.
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