Rules Changes to make the D&D more Gothic...

Discussing all things Ravenloft
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Jester of the FoS
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

wolfgang_fener wrote:
removing some more over-the-top spells and resurection style spells may help.
Without removing it entirely, you can do as I did nd make it more difficult.

Raise-dead age the caster 1 year and cost 1000gp worth of holy oils, encences and such. The raised character returns with 1 hp and must heal naturally all its hp. The caster and the raised character must have complete rest for at least 1 day per HD/level raised.

Resurection is the same except it takes 3 years out of the caster but the raised character raise up fully healed and doesn't need rest.
Is that in addition to the 5,000gp gem required for raise dead or the 10,000gp needed for resurrection?
I find aging characters seldom works and is very "second edition". Characters seldom live long enough to reach venerable or old age and seldom suffer the effects of long life. How many die of old age?
A more 3E and useful deterant is xp cost.
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Baduin9
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Post by Baduin9 »

Resurrection etc. as written is very good for standard D&D, and utterly out of place in Ravenloft. It does not mean that PCs should be killed off without any possibility of returning - but any such resurrection should be appropriately gothic.

There are a few books and games which show how to resurrect a character in a very gothic style - "Planescape: Torment", "Revenant", GRR Martin's series "The Song of Fire and Ice" (resurrected there were Lightning Lord Beric and Lady Catelyn Stark), and a short story by Clark Ashton Smith: The Testament of Athammaus (a memoir of an executor who has to dispatch a bandit - who is able to regenerate even while dead).

http://eldritchdark.com/writings/short- ... -athammaus

Some possibilities:

1. No resurrection, instead Fate points Warhammer-style.
2. Only raising as undead.
3. Most people cannot be resurrected. Some, with a particular gift or a destiny which must be fulfilled (essentially, PCs), can - but it has a price. Eg -2 to Outcast Rating, or permanent loss of 2 Charisma points.
4. Or each time you are resurrected, you lose one character level and gain one level of some aberration or ooze or monstrous humanoid - preferably something with regeneration. At some point you would gain werecreature template. If the creature has some minimal hit dice, when you gain that number of levels (hit dice) in that creature you become that kind of creature.
5. Those that returned from the dead are not able to disclose secrets of the grave. Any resurrected character is mute, his mind cannot be read etc.
6. You are returned because your destiny is unfulfilled. You are alive again - untill you finish your task. If you do not try to finish it as quickly as possible, you begin to receive negative levels. They can be regained only by an important success in the pursuit of your goal.
"Dies nostri quasi umbra super terram et nulla est mora."
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LouisVendredi
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Post by LouisVendredi »

When one of my PCs was ressurected (after another PC killed him), he came back with a fiend who had hitched a ride and started to try to take over his body (per VRGtF). His sister, an NPC who started the game as a ghost, was resurrected because she DID have a special destiny.
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-- Anya Jenkins
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doctor-evil
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Post by doctor-evil »

Although I do think that characters should be able to be raised and ressurrected (otherwise players that die because of bad dice/luck will get very demoralised and players will start to become extreemely phobic to any encounter that could possibly lead to combat or exposure to spells at higher levels when a single spell can slay a character), I do like the idea of characters accumulating an OR rating each time they are raised. (Perhaps a culmulative OR of 2 for each raising, or 1 for a ressurrection).

You could also recquire a powers check for both the caster and the player when these spells are cast, with coming back from the dead being seen as something perverse and unnnatural (with a failure risk of spell level% for the caster, but maybe 2x spell level for the recipient). Even though the recipient didn't do anything evil themselves, their soul becomes tainted/infected by the dark powers.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

One method of making resurrection-magic more difficult that I've used in my non-Ravenloft games, that might translate okay to RL, is to give the players (the dead PC's and the spellcaster's) "homework" of a sort. I require resurrections to take place at the end of a game-session, so the players have time between the sessions to do it.

In-character, the premise I've used is that resurrecting someone only works if the campaign's incarnation of Death (called "the Hound" IMC) is persuaded to let the person's soul return. When the spell is cast, the caster experiences a psychic vision of the Hound, to whom they must argue for the release of the deceased soul. In-character, this takes only moments, but the subjective experience for the caster can be much more prolonged. The arguments for freeing the soul can't be based on compassion (the Hound has very little and has heard it all before) or ambition (why should Death care if you're a commoner or a king?); however, if the caster can argue that the dead person's destiny on earth has yet to be fulfilled, the spell will work.

OOC, the two players have to write up the caster's arguements for letting the PC's spirit return, and to do it in-character, without using gamespeak. If they put in a sincere effort -- even if it's not very well-written -- I'll let the spell work. If the players don't really care about restoring the dead PC enough to take the time to write something, or the player of the slain one hasn't given him/her enough of a personality or history to concoct such an argument, then the Hound isn't convinced and the spell fails.

In Ravenloft, perhaps the Mists themselves would need to be persuaded.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

I like to think of Ressurection in terms of a high level spell. Players are seldom likely to gain access to it, but if they do and have the money and are willing to bring them back at a lower level then they should be allowed to.
Ditto raise dead.

I'm not a fan of game-penalties for such a moment. I'm not going to punish someone or handicap them for being attached to their character. First and foremost it is a game and the setting must accomodate play, not the other way around. The world must bend for what we want to do and how we want to run things and, sometimes, that means letting someone bring their favourite character back.

Let's face it, losing a character you've spent months or years on, especially in RP-ing worlds where they're a living character with a full background and personality, really hurts.

I think of it like in Buffy. Lower magic world yet there's still rare rituals that can bring a person back with no physical side effects.
But how does someone emotionally and psychologically deal with death and returing to life? What effect does that have on someone's soul. In real life near death experiences can have profound effects, what does actually passing over do?
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Luke Fleeman
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Post by Luke Fleeman »

I think the conisderation for ressurection should also include form of death.

If the PC made a stupid, idiotic move or acted like a jackass to get themselves killed, I am unlikely to let it in. If they deserved it, or had put themselves in a bad situation, I am less likely to allow it, too.

If, however, they go down doing something heroic, or they are the victim of just bad die rolls, I am more likely to allow it.

That being said, this still means there should be infrequent use of it in Ravenloft. The threat should be more palpable, and most people, even the rich and powerful, cannot typically get it.

If I am going to let a player get resurrected, I am likely to do this: An NPC member of a church has a way to recover a relic/holy text that can assist it. If the PCs go on a harrowing quest to retrieve it, and participate in the ritual, and are indebted to the Church, the dead PC rises. During the quest I let him play a short-term PC so he isnt left out.

Even then, there is going to be problems for the PC who is resurrected. Your soul dwelling too long in the realms of the dead can't be healthy, and they may be quite different.
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you - Friedrich Nietzsche
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