Rules Changes to make the D&D more Gothic...

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Rules Changes to make the D&D more Gothic...

Post by The_Confessor »

I'm in the early stages of designing a RL game and I'm considering making two large changes to the D&D system in order to make the rules of D&D a bit more gritty and gothic.

First and foremost: I'm removing Alignments. This is done so that both PCs and NPCs aren't dictated by a pair of words and actually have to make real choices. It removes the simplistic crutch of "I do it because I'm Chaotic Good" or "We kill him because he's Evil." It creates characters, PC and NPC, with three dimensions.

Secondly, I'm revising the Hit Point system and taking a cue from A Game of Thrones d20. At first level, all characters recieve maximum hit points as determined by their hit die. After first level, it works like this:

Barbarian: 4 hit points per level + con modifier
Fighter, Paladin: 3 hit points per level + con modifier
Cleric, Ranger, Druid, Monk: 2 hit points per level + con modifier
Bard, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard: 1 hit point per level + con modifier.

I feel like this will keep things a bit more gritty and realistic, and make players think twice about leaping into the fray with their swords swinging. Suddenly monsters will seem like... well, monsters.

What do you guys think? Are these good ideas? Are they too harsh? I'd like some input. Thanks in advance.
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Post by ScS of the Fraternity »

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Post by Faust »

The hp thing is harsch really with one hp a cat can kill you with a scratch.
Sure there are less fight in ravenloft than in regular dnd but 1hp?

I'd suggest that you give normal hp: trust me they need it! Except if you want to make a call of cthulhu like game with players dying every two or three rounds.
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Post by Faust »

But the alignment thing is a good thing: the alignment system is bad... really!
But anywya its never used in ravenloft(there are no functionnal alignment detection spell anyway)
It should have been replaced by the allegence system of d20 modern(help roleplaying a lot more than those alignment).

Another nice rule is to make the god like those in Ebberon:Distant.
That way having corrupted priest is possible.
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Post by Big Bad Jack »

The HP system thing. .gods no. Drop that right now. It'll just get PCs dead too quickly.. and make cheaper the Rogue, as the Rogue should have enough HP to take a couple decent hits in a scrap as they sneak and backstab, and Bards.. Bards are made to be decently efficient second-line combatants.

Seriously, only thing you'll accomplish is to tick off the players. If you insist on a fixed rate....

Wiz/Sorc: 3 HP + Con/lvl
Rog/Brd: 4 HP + Con/lvl
Cleric/Druid: 6 HP + Con/lvl
Fighter/Pal/Ranger: 8 HP + Con/lvl
Barbarian: 10 HP + Con/lvl

THis is a roughly 75%-80% roll.
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Post by Dion of the Fraternity »

First and foremost: I'm removing Alignments. This is done so that both PCs and NPCs aren't dictated by a pair of words and actually have to make real choices. It removes the simplistic crutch of "I do it because I'm Chaotic Good" or "We kill him because he's Evil." It creates characters, PC and NPC, with three dimensions.
Great idea! :)

My suggestion is: how about a Virtue/Vice system now being used in the New World of Darkness? :)
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Post by Joël of the FoS »

IMC, I use alignement to give the PCs guidelines on their conduct - are they chaotic or lawful, or a mix? - but it's not used elsewhere since you can't detect it in Ravenloft.

And I think the HP system proposed is quite gritty. I remember reading something about it in another horror RPG book. If I find it, I'll get back here.

And you have a few well balanced options in the RL DMG, p 28.

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Post by Undead Cabbage »

I back up the claim that the proposed HP system will end up in a rediculously high body bag count. Remember that realism is nice, but characters dying too often hampers gameplay incredibly. A good way to keep things as 'role' play and not 'roll' play is to allow your players to develop their characters. As you said, you want your characters to be three dimensional, however its hard to add that dimension to your character if its going to die in one or two levels any way.

I agree that the alignment system is far from perfect. In a fantasy campaign it might work, but in a Gothic horror is simplifies everything too much. There are, however, plenty of other systems out there. d20 star wars shuns alignments, and judges your character by how far it has leaned towards the dark side. The only catch behind not using the alignment system is that you need to be extra careful that players won't try and cheat the system. Even though the conventional guidelines won't be there, monks, paladins, barbarians, bards and the like still need to abide by certain rules (or in some cases, lack there of).
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Post by Algaris »

How about doing something similar to what the Darkness & Dread D20 handbook uses for their Health Points system instead of Hit Points?

Health = (constitution score x size factor) + hit Dice or level.

Creature size
Fine 1/8
Diminutive 1/8
Tiny 1/4
Small 1/2
Medium 1
Large 2
Huge 3
Gargantuan 4
Colossal 5

For example

1st level human Fighter 15 Con would have 16 health
Size=1 (Medium). 15x1=15 +1 level=16

4th level gnome Rouge Con 13 would have 10 health
Size=1/2 (small). 13x1/2=6 (rounded down from 6.5) +4 levels =10

The book recommends using the following to show the difference with strange otherworldly creatures, to reflect their supernatural strength and vitality.

Hit points: constructs, elementals, fey, oozes, outsiders, plants and undead

Health Points: Aberrations, animals, dragons, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, vermin
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Re: Rules Changes to make the D&D more Gothic...

Post by Scipion_Emilien »

The_Confessor wrote:First and foremost: I'm removing Alignments. This is done so that both PCs and NPCs aren't dictated by a pair of words and actually have to make real choices. It removes the simplistic crutch of "I do it because I'm Chaotic Good" or "We kill him because he's Evil." It creates characters, PC and NPC, with three dimensions.
Personnally, I didn't find the need to change alignement since you cannot detect them into ravenloft. But I can understand you need to get rid of them, some people take them as a description rather than an indication and this lead to bi-dimensionnal character.
The_Confessor wrote:Secondly, I'm revising the Hit Point system
As others have said, think about it twice, HP is important and a lot more in a low-magic setting where magic-item enhancing AC are rare, the HP rapidly become the main line of defense against all kind of attack. The standart hp is fine in my opinion at least in the lower lvl, perhaps make them get less when they cross lvl 8.
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Post by Big Bad Jack »

Actually, a good idea could be taken from the Star Wars d20 RPG.

You have "Vitality Points" and "Wound Points." Vitality points work identically to Hit Points (in most cases -- they also are used to power Force abilities), but represent heroic luck and skill at rolling with punches more than physical well-being.

Wound Points are always, no matter your level, equal to your Constitution. Wound points come into play when you run out of Vitality -- or when you suffer a Critical Hit. In lieu of additional damage, Crits in SWd20 bypass Vitality and directly wound you, which is a nasty thing, fatigue-effects you. Wounds are also harder to heal than Vitality. Thus even a legendary hero still risks death in a tavern brawl, as even a tough as hell Dwarf will still have a max of 25 Wound Points at 20th level...

..the only awkwardness would be in the fact that there are no noted x3-x4, whatever critical weapons in the books I have thusfar, so that would take some DM-monkeying.. maybe have x3 do damage x1.5 rounded up and x4 weaposn do wound damage equal to damage x2? Seems reasonable...
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Re: Rules Changes to make the D&D more Gothic...

Post by alhoon »

The_Confessor wrote: First and foremost: I'm removing Alignments. This is done so that both PCs and NPCs aren't dictated by a pair of words and actually have to make real choices. It removes the simplistic crutch of "I do it because I'm Chaotic Good" or "We kill him because he's Evil." It creates characters, PC and NPC, with three dimensions.
I both agree and disagree on that.

1) The two words do not say how a character must behave. It shows how the character usually behaves and treats others.
The way a +6 to hit rolls doesn't mean you always hit anything with AC 15 and always miss anything with AC 17...
It is a description exactly like when you say to a friend that "The robber in the bank is a bad person"

2) Alignment in D&D exists for a purpose that doesn't suit Ravenloft! Alingment in D&D has the following meaning (Look at book of Exalted deeds and the Wizards rules and the Sage advice and the PHB etc).
- A description how the character usually behaves. Like hair color or which god you have, how old you are and how strong you are. (That suits Ravenloft fine)
- More than a set of morals alignment is a type of energy/race or something something I cannot express except by example. A Quality of kind.
Good/Evil exist within you and can be detected.
If you're good you get extra damage from holy weapons/holy spells the way a creature of cold subtype gets more damage from fire spells.
There is a number of class abilities (like smite evil) that deal more damage to evil creatures. There are also spells that do the same trick.

The_Confessor wrote: Secondly, I'm revising the Hit Point system and taking a cue from A Game of Thrones d20. At first level, all characters recieve maximum hit points as determined by their hit die. After first level, it works like this:
I had a similar idea and I decided on the following:
1st level = max hp.
2nd level and up = 1/2 (rolled HD+con)
The 2nd level fighter soldier seems more dangerous now to the 8th level fighter.
But how prevent character death?
- Each class's AC improves by level and armor provides damage reduction.Shield bonuses, dodge etc add to AC. Natural armor? Well that is tricky. I say 1/2 of it as damage reduction and house rule the high natural armors of dragons etc. The AC improvements are dodge bonuses. They stack with everything... but better you not get caught flat footed.
- Power attack becomes a combat maneuver instead of a feat. That is all characters can opt to lower their hit roll bonus to gain damage bonus... up to -5/+5. From there on, you need the feat. Also unless you have the feat 2H weapons deal only as much extra damage, as the penalty. So if you take a -2 to hit rolls with a Greataxe you deal only +2 extra damage unless you have the feat.
This is needed for characters to be able to bypass damage reduction if they choose to.
- Magic? Well... magic becomes deadly. A 6d6 fireball dealing 21 hit points that would just injure a 5th level fighter (usually around 45 hit points or more) now can seriously wound him, since said fighter has about 30 hit points.*
- Creatures? Creatures suffer from the same restrictions as characters. Yes, monsters are monsters, but the 9th level vampire lord only has 12 + (8d12)/2 = 38 hit points. However his fast healing seems MUCH more that before.

This way you have a world where:
- defence in combat comes as much from skill as from experience and equipment.
- magic is an extremely potent and fearful weapon
- The hardened veteran fighter/monster hunter can defend himself from bandits, but not from overwhelming odds.
- Said monster hunter should be always on edge because in an ambush (where he would be caught flat footed) he may very well die (low hp, very low AC and the enemies can use power attack to bypass some damage reduction).

*I would suggest you to reduce the spells a bit. Drop the d6s to d4s and you have the part. Or increase the spell level of some damage dealing spells. For example fireball could be made a 4th level spell. Or make the dice fixed. For example a fireball could deal 5d6 damage whatever the spell level of the caster.
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Post by Big Bad Jack »

As a sidenote, the Star Warts game does the same with Defense bonuses and armor benefits.
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Post by Undead Cabbage »

Likewise, if you were going to use the wound point-vitality point system, you could always rule that firearms attack wound points directly.
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Post by Fido »

Not necessarily. A firearm could also hit you and scrape a bit of a nail away, or something.

I suggest you give firearms a bigger threat range though.
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