The Church of Andral

Discussing all things Ravenloft
User avatar
Bloody Morgan
Arch-villain
Arch-villain
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:36 am
Location: The Sea of Sorrows

The Church of Andral

Post by Bloody Morgan »

Hey all,

Quick question here - is Andral's portfolio listed anywhere, either in canon or fanworks? My PCs have come into (loose) contact with the Keepers of the Black Feather, who are listed as Andral worshippers in the old Forbidden Lore. They're also soon going to have an adventure which in part features an ancient ruined Barovian temple, and Andral is the only listed Barovian deity that suits. So I'd like to do the setting and the deity justice. His domains, etc. aren't that crucial, but I'm interested in his choosen weapon and his general attitudes and tenets.

Specifically I'm interested in how he differs from the Morninglord. Three of my PCs are faithfull worshippers of that deity - one is a paladin, another is about to multiclass into Cleric, and the third is a recent convert. I'd like them to see similarities between the two sun-god faiths, but I don't want them to be the same thing under a different name.

Thanks in advance,
Bloody Morgan
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

I don't recall seeing a 3E write-up for Andral's faith anywhere, but a few things can be extrapolated from "I, Strahd" and other 2E sources:

- Andral is Lawful Good, judging by the 2E assumption that clerics had to share the exact alignment of their deity; the Morninglord (at least in Ravenloft) is viewed as Chaotic Good. That, in itself, would help tell the two apart, as Andral's church was much more hierarchical and inclined to cooperate with secular authorities. (Granted, that's a lot easier when the secular authorities aren't virtually all darklords.... :wink: )

- The longsword is a logical favored weapon for Andral's church. This can be inferred from the fact that Sergei von Zarovich (who'd been destined for the clergy up until his marriage-plans and subsequant murder derailed that) was trained in swordsmanship, even though his birth-order'd slated him for peaceful Church responsibilities, his whole life. This wasn't just casual sparring either, as might be accounted for due to childhood fencing-lessons from a family's militant traditions; Strahd's brother once bested a dangerous bandit leader on a counter-raid led by his sibling.

- Both men and women were welcome within Andral's clergy, but at the time Barovia became cursed, none were permitted to wed. (This seems to have since changed in Material Plane Barovia, BTW, as a married high priestess of Andral appeared in "From the Shadows".) The ranking cleric in Barovia at the time of Strahd's crimes was a woman, powerful enough to cast Raise Dead.

- Bloodline seems to have trumped experience-levels or simple seniority, in determining one's authority within the clergy. Before renouncing his calling to wed, Sergei would have inherited leadership of the Church from the late High Priest Kir, even though he was only 27 (and evidently not even ordained yet, despite what some 3E products imply) at the time! Lady Ilona, another ranking clergy member from Strahd's day, was born to a noble family; the High Priestess in "From the Shadows" was the Queen-consort of Material Plane Barovia's King Barov IV.

- Andral's church evidently had its ups and downs, even before Strahd's crimes. Several sites in Barovia (and a few more in Borca, though they might or might not correspond to actual Material-Plane sites; we can't be sure how closely Borca recapitulates Barovia's old neighbor Borjia) were originally dedicated to Andral, but were later closed down and co-opted for military or other purposes.

- Like many Good-aligned faiths, the Church of Andral took responsibility for charitable works throughout their sphere of influence. Tatyana herself was an orphan, raised in the Church's custody. Lady Ilona's discussions with the still-living Strahd suggest she was well-accustomed to speaking up for the commoners' welfare, and using diplomacy to curb the excesses of grumpy military-minded noblemen. :wink:

- Despite its Lawful bent, forgiveness and compassion seem to have been a strong component of Andral's teachings. I don't recall the full list of inscriptions on the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind, but IIRC there were more of them that pertain to the merciful side of Lawful Goodness than to its crusading, judgemental side.

The fact Andral wasn't specifically a dawn-god, as the Morninglord (actually a reinterpretation of Lathander from FR) is, would in itself make their creeds somewhat different in emphasis: the latter deity's emphasis on new beginnings and fresh starts would be absent. Note, too, that while Andral is the only Good-aligned deity from the Von Zarovich homeworld that Ravenloft's Barovians remember -- not surprising, given that he was evidently the Von Zarovich family's patron god -- he's clearly not the only such deity from their original world. Andral was probably part of a larger, now-forgotten pantheon (there are numerous references to "the gods" in the novels and 2E products, from before 351 BC) at one time ... and he may not even have been its chief deity, at that, though he was clearly the predominant deity within historical Borjia (the Balinoks [later "Barovia"] included).
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Boccaccio Barbarossa
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:33 am
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Contact:

Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Haven't most barivoans forgotten the name of Andral? I kknow the keepers would remember, of course, but beyond that?... Anyways, the only reference I know of to Andral in STATS, anyways, is the Keepers of the Black Feather sidebar in Gaz 1. The only mention made is that the high priestess' domains are Sun and Good. But beyond that?...

If anything, I would likley go with Andral as being a rehashing of Pelor from the PHB - it's easy and it JUST different enough. And did I mention it's easy. :wink: (And a piece of the sun sounds like something Pelor would be cool with...) That would make his favoured weapon the mace, I think? Not that it matters much - all of his worshippers now are basically wereravens, so who knows?

With regards to Sergei and the Longsword: I know that, at the time, in 2e, he would have had to be a specialty priest of some sort to use a longsword as a cleric (implying that War was likely one of his spheres... I would just add it to the Pelor/Andral list in this case. Maybe at the expense of Strength?), but in 3e, I would insted simply see it as Sergei having levels of Aristocrat (and maybe a few of fighter, but it's not necessary). AFter all, Strahd himself says he's a great soldier but was an aristocratic fop in that he spent his youth in the lap of luxury. Maybe something like Ari 3/Clr 10? (That's just totally random numbers, but I think it works...)
Barbarossa Vineyards - Fine Brandies. The choice of true connaisseurs. (Located an hour's ride outside of Karina.)

A loose collection of writings about our (sometimes) ongoing campaign. http://ravenloft.inoveryourhead.net/
User avatar
Bloody Morgan
Arch-villain
Arch-villain
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:36 am
Location: The Sea of Sorrows

Post by Bloody Morgan »

Wow. Thanks loads! Plenty to work with there - especially on the Pelor front. Gives lots to loot from.

One final question loosely tied to this - are there any other old Barovian deities named anywhere? I don't really expect any, but I'd always rather use a canon source and change it than make up random names myself. I'm odd like that :)

Bloody Morgan
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Boccaccio Barbarossa wrote:Maybe something like Ari 3/Clr 10?
For Sergei? Hardly; he died from a single unpoisoned dagger-strike, after all, and whatever else Strahd might be or have become, he's never had a sneak-attack bonus! In 3E terms, I'd peg Sergei as maybe an Ari2 at the time of his death -- no, he did not have cleric-levels yet; his ordination wasn't to have taken place until the period of mourning for High Priest Kir was over, and he met Tatyana before that could happen -- albeit with a high-enough Strength score (one of many things that'd made Strahd envy his brother's youthful vigor) to give him a fair shot against Red Lukas.

Quibbles aside, I wouldn't recommend making Andral just a clone of Pelor. For one thing, it'd lose a lot of the Lawfulness that would make him feel distinct from the Morninglord (which is what you wanted, isn't it, Morgan?); for another, it'd miss out on the chance to make a deity more suitable for Barovia's themes and history.

Oh, and one other thing: even before Strahd's screw-up, blood had great ritual significance in Barovia. While Andral's faith is Good, you may want to consider using minor, benign mentions of "blood-rites" -- binding Church-witnessed agreements by cutting fingers and holding them together, a la "blood brothers", and so forth -- to add just a teeny bit of (to Ravenloft folk) creepiness to Andral's faith ... even though, back in the day, there was nothing sinister implied or intended in such practices.

This would make for a nice med-student in-joke too, BTW: IRL, "Andral" is the name of the doctor credited with founding the medical discipline of hematology, i.e. the study of blood. :wink:
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Boccaccio Barbarossa
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:33 am
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Contact:

Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Boccaccio Barbarossa wrote:Maybe something like Ari 3/Clr 10?
<shrug> I was just throwing numbers out there and REALLY gave it no thgouht. it was just to illustrate my point about which class/es Sergaei might have.

As for Andral: Personally, when I said "He's like Pelor" I didn't mean he's the same, but that the doamins sounded about right and that it might be a good place to start working on a Sun god. If we go with Rotipher's feeling on it, just imagine a Lawful Pelor. :wink:

Mind you, I spent a whole 5 minutes thinking about it... I'm just trying to give some ideas...
Barbarossa Vineyards - Fine Brandies. The choice of true connaisseurs. (Located an hour's ride outside of Karina.)

A loose collection of writings about our (sometimes) ongoing campaign. http://ravenloft.inoveryourhead.net/
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Boccaccio Barbarossa wrote:Haven't most barivoans forgotten the name of Andral? I know the keepers would remember, of course, but beyond that...
I doubt that S ever spoke to the Keepers of the Black Feather (now, that would be an interesting conversation to eavesdrop on! :wink: ), yet she seems to be aware of Andral's historical significance, in her Gaz treatments on Barovia and Borca. Common folk-memory of this deity is probably distorted well beyond recognition (as demonstrated in the "piece of the sun" folktale in VotM), but historians and theologians certainly know a bit about Andral (perhaps "moderately obscure", for Knowledge check purposes).

And I didn't mean to jump down your throat about Sergei, BTW; it's just an old pet peeve of mine, that everybody and their dog seems to think he was either a fully-functioning cleric or (even worse) a paladin. Even the 3E products make the former mistake at times, though nothing from the novels (the only sources we have about him, as he's already dead by the time PCs arrive at the wedding in "From the Shadows") supports either.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Jakob
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:43 am
Gender: Male
Location: Near Milano, Italy.
Contact:

Post by Jakob »

he died from a single unpoisoned dagger-strike, after all
Am I the only DM here that states "If you receive a pistol shot in your head from the guy holding you as hostage, you can have 34 hp left, but you're dead anyway"? :?

I've always seen Sergei as a Ari 3/Ftr 1... He was about to take cleric levels when he met Tatyana, IMHO.

As for the Pelor-Andral matter... I totally agree with Boccaccio: Andral is much more "gerararchized" (does this word even exist? :)) Pelor, much more akin to the Heironeous church, with emphasis on bloodline.
...
Something like...
...
...
Peiloneus! :lol:
I coloni rovinavano la foresta costruendo il capolavoro dell'uomo civilizzato: il deserto.
- Luis Sepúlveda
User avatar
Boccaccio Barbarossa
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:33 am
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Contact:

Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Rotipher wrote:
Boccaccio Barbarossa wrote:Haven't most barivoans forgotten the name of Andral? I know the keepers would remember, of course, but beyond that...
I doubt that S ever spoke to the Keepers of the Black Feather (now, that would be an interesting conversation to eavesdrop on! :wink: ), yet she seems to be aware of Andral's historical significance, in her Gaz treatments on Barovia and Borca. Common folk-memory of this deity is probably distorted well beyond recognition (as demonstrated in the "piece of the sun" folktale in VotM), but historians and theologians certainly know a bit about Andral (perhaps "moderately obscure", for Knowledge check purposes).

And I didn't mean to jump down your throat about Sergei, BTW; it's just an old pet peeve of mine, that everybody and their dog seems to think he was either a fully-functioning cleric or (even worse) a paladin. Even the 3E products make the former mistake at times, though nothing from the novels (the only sources we have about him, as he's already dead by the time PCs arrive at the wedding in "From the Shadows") supports either.
Don't worrt about it. I must confess that I JUST read, like yesterday-just, VotM for the 1st time... To my evelasting shame, as I have been playing Ravenloft for somethign like 10-12 years... Strange how these things work out! ;)

So, then we can all agree that, now anyways: Sergei is a 0-level corpse. :shock: Now, if there was some way to bring him back through
miracle or wish, that might make things interesting... and there might be a real reason to decide on his levels. :lol: (Actually, I'm playing just the right character to give that a try eventually.... :twisted: )
Barbarossa Vineyards - Fine Brandies. The choice of true connaisseurs. (Located an hour's ride outside of Karina.)

A loose collection of writings about our (sometimes) ongoing campaign. http://ravenloft.inoveryourhead.net/
User avatar
BlackBoxGamer
Agent of the Fraternity
Agent of the Fraternity
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: Eugene, Oregon (Hippieville)

Post by BlackBoxGamer »

- Despite its Lawful bent, forgiveness and compassion seem to have been a strong component of Andral's teachings. I don't recall the full list of inscriptions on the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind, but IIRC there were more of them that pertain to the merciful side of Lawful Goodness than to its crusading, judgemental side.
Can you name your source for the inscriptions? I'm really curious since I was thinking of using this item in a campaign I am about to run.

BBG
So many differing fancies have mankind,
That they the master-sprites may spell and bind.
User avatar
Ail
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:33 am
Location: Egham, UK

Post by Ail »

This is not canon, of course, but in my campaign I put an Andral temple in the Baratak, that by now is buried deep in the snow, but an old priest of the Morninglord, perhaps a century ago, found it and studied it. It had some inscriptions there about a sacred object (just a magic sword, not an artifact) planted there by the god to be wielded by good-aligned characters. It is a frost +1 long sword, more or less (I could tweak to add one penalty to it, like dealing nonlethal cold damage to the wielder, but I'm not sure).
In the myth that originated the search of that monk, Andral saved two hunters from the spectre of Jezra Wagner and ressurrected one of them, then illuminated the entrance to the already buried temple with a blue light that came from the sky. They did not investigate and warned the church, and since then, the Church of the Morninglord takes an interest in the Church of Andral and looks at him as a kin-god of sorts.
In this myth, Andral has a certain connection to Ice and Cold, and is more of a moutnain god, but I wasn't aware of his domains anyway (nor of the sun connection). This would also fit in well with longsword being his favoured weapon.
As an aside, I've also put Kir writing a book about arcane magic, which instructed priests on how to learn the magic of wizards (this was actually because a player of mine, cleric of Ezra, wanted to multiclass as wizard, so I did this such that he could have at least an inkling of arcane magic before having private lessosn with a wizard.... I know it must be weak, but how do you justify multiclassing to Wizard in the middle of a campaign, anyway ?). He warned that this was sacrilegous (at the time of writing) but being something real it was the duty of priests to study arcane magic.
So, another facet of Andral is Universality. Everything is his domain (because I viewed Andral as the only god. Although I've read both I, Strahd and VotM, I never paid much attention to the details).

Hope that gives you some ideas more :-)

Ail
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

BlackBoxGamer wrote:
- Despite its Lawful bent, forgiveness and compassion seem to have been a strong component of Andral's teachings. I don't recall the full list of inscriptions on the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind, but IIRC there were more of them that pertain to the merciful side of Lawful Goodness than to its crusading, judgemental side.
Can you name your source for the inscriptions? I'm really curious since I was thinking of using this item in a campaign I am about to run.

BBG
It's in "Vampire of the Mists", when Jander and Sasha have just found the Holy Symbol and are examining it.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Bloody Morgan
Arch-villain
Arch-villain
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:36 am
Location: The Sea of Sorrows

Post by Bloody Morgan »

Rotipher wrote:Quibbles aside, I wouldn't recommend making Andral just a clone of Pelor. For one thing, it'd lose a lot of the Lawfulness that would make him feel distinct from the Morninglord (which is what you wanted, isn't it, Morgan?); for another, it'd miss out on the chance to make a deity more suitable for Barovia's themes and history.
Yep, I want to make him distinct. Pelor will work for a stand-in or a basis though, I do agree with Boccaccio that he's a good stand in while I come up with something else.[/quote]
Oh, and one other thing: even before Strahd's screw-up, blood had great ritual significance in Barovia. While Andral's faith is Good, you may want to consider using minor, benign mentions of "blood-rites" -- binding Church-witnessed agreements by cutting fingers and holding them together, a la "blood brothers", and so forth -- to add just a teeny bit of (to Ravenloft folk) creepiness to Andral's faith ... even though, back in the day, there was nothing sinister implied or intended in such practices.
Creepiness and prone to encouraging suspicion all right... I like that one. A Lawful deity would be far more strict on tenets, etc. than a Chaotic one like the Morninglord, so failing to observe said pacting would be a serious no-no for the few surviving servitors. And what PC in Ravenloft is going to trust a stranger who says that they must mix their blood to seal some agreement? That will work nicely to point out the differences, I think.
This would make for a nice med-student in-joke too, BTW: IRL, "Andral" is the name of the doctor credited with founding the medical discipline of hematology, i.e. the study of blood. :wink:
And that I did not know. Nifty - I love these little hidden bits.

Thanks again everyone.
User avatar
Boccaccio Barbarossa
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:33 am
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Contact:

Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

BlackBoxGamer wrote:
- Despite its Lawful bent, forgiveness and compassion seem to have been a strong component of Andral's teachings. I don't recall the full list of inscriptions on the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind, but IIRC there were more of them that pertain to the merciful side of Lawful Goodness than to its crusading, judgemental side.
Can you name your source for the inscriptions? I'm really curious since I was thinking of using this item in a campaign I am about to run.

BBG
The only inscription I can think of is the one on the fresco in Castle Ravenloft:

"THE GOBLYN KING FLEES BEFORE THE POWER OF THE HOLY SYMBOL OF RAVENKIND." VotM, p.320
Barbarossa Vineyards - Fine Brandies. The choice of true connaisseurs. (Located an hour's ride outside of Karina.)

A loose collection of writings about our (sometimes) ongoing campaign. http://ravenloft.inoveryourhead.net/
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

VotM, p. 321. Symbols on the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind that were recognized by Sasha include "Truth", "Compassion", "Forgiveness", "Justice", and "Light".
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
Post Reply