Ghost's malevolence attack

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Ghost's malevolence attack

Post by Mortepierre »

Question: when a ghost "possesses" a body, it's similar to a magic jar attack, except that the ghost doesn't need a receptacle. I am thus curious to know what happens to the soul/spirit of the person "inhabited". Is it lost, destroyed, kept stored in her own body (albeit in a powerless state) or what? I have looked through several WotC books but haven't found a satisfactory answer so far. Even Libris Mortis failed to solve the problem.

In a related topic, I was wondering how many of you were using the Dicefreaks template for major undeads?

If you don't know what I am talking about, check it here:
http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewfor ... ba37af6182

(yes, I know they could use some editing for spelling mistakes but that's a minor issue)
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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

We ran into this question over on Reckonings. I think consensus we came to is that the victim is along for the ride. Aware, but helpless. But there was definately no concrete answer in the books that I recall. go with whatever's scariest.
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Re: Ghost's malevolence attack

Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Mortepierre wrote:Question: when a ghost "possesses" a body, it's similar to a magic jar attack, except that the ghost doesn't need a receptacle. I am thus curious to know what happens to the soul/spirit of the person "inhabited". Is it lost, destroyed, kept stored in her own body (albeit in a powerless state) or what? I have looked through several WotC books but haven't found a satisfactory answer so far. Even Libris Mortis failed to solve the problem.
My suggestion - whatever works best for each individual ghost/posession. If it would be more dramatic to have the victim along and AWARe thoguh powerless (perhaps as the ghost tortures the PC's family) then doi it. On the other, if it's better for you purposes to have a player wake up, tired, in the middle of the day, going: "Why didn't I sleep well at all?" only to have his friends come in an say: "Where did you wander off to last night?" Then, do that.

:twisted:
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

In other words, follow the immortal "Bill Rule" of 2E infamy: Always ask yourself, "Which would be scarier?"
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Post by Mad Skipper »

"Under normal circumstances, a magic jar spell forces its victim into some sort of receptacle (the aforementioned crystal, for example). Because ghosts do not employ this focus, there is no storage place for the victim's spirit, and it is forever cast out of its body to become a ghost or similar spirit on its own. Thus, a ghost able to successfully employ this power instantly slays the person that it is used upon. I am told there is no more painful way to die than having one's life force ripped free of one's body in this fashion."

-- Dr. Rudolph Van Richten, TSR's Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts, reprinted in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Volume Two.

As an alternative,

"Incorporeal creatures with the magic jar ability can use a handy, nearby object (not just a gem or crystal) as the magic jar."

-- Player's Handbook (WotC), under the spell description for Magic Jar.
Last edited by Mad Skipper on Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Rotipher wrote:In other words, follow the immortal "Bill Rule" of 2E infamy: Always ask yourself, "Which would be scarier?"
Pretty much. Though I think the skipper has it right, by the rules.
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Post by Mortepierre »

Mad Skipper wrote:"Under normal circumstances, a magic jar spell forces its victim into some sort of receptacle (the aforementioned crystal, for example). Because ghosts do not employ this focus, there is no storage place for the victim's spirit, and it is forever cast out of its body to become a ghost or similar spirit on its own. Thus, a ghost able to successfully employ this power instantly slays the person that it is used upon. I am told there is no more painful way to die than having own's life force ripped free of one's body in this fashion."

-- Dr. Rudolph Van Richten, TSR's Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts, reprinted in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Volume Two.
I remembered about that one but it seemed a bit harsh. In effect, it's akin to an "insta-kill" result. Not to mention that it could mean creating a new ghost (or geist, perhaps) at the same time.
Mad Skipper wrote:As an alternative,

"Incorporeal creatures with the magic jar ability can use a handy, nearby object (not just a gem or crystal) as the magic jar."

-- Player's Handbook (WotC), under the spell description for Magic Jar.
Sorry but unless you're quoting the new Spell Compendium or a new version of the PHB 3.5, I don't think that's right. I just reread my own PHB (p.250-251) and can't find that sentence anywhere in the text. It's not in the RLPHB either (or the SRD for that matter).
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Post by Mad Skipper »

Mortepierre wrote:I remembered about that one but it seemed a bit harsh. In effect, it's akin to an "insta-kill" result. Not to mention that it could mean creating a new ghost (or geist, perhaps) at the same time.
A new ghost that will be forced to possess a new body: a challenging scenario for a PC for sure. With time, and once they become aware of their new ability to possess, they might even be able to reclaim their body in a new, weird sort of way...
Sorry but unless you're quoting the new Spell Compendium or a new version of the PHB 3.5, I don't think that's right. I just reread my own PHB (p.250-251) and can't find that sentence anywhere in the text. It's not in the RLPHB either (or the SRD for that matter).
Player's Handbook 3.0, page 224.
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Post by alhoon »

Mad Skipper wrote:"Under normal circumstances, a magic jar spell forces its victim into some sort of receptacle (the aforementioned crystal, for example). Because ghosts do not employ this focus, there is no storage place for the victim's spirit, and it is forever cast out of its body to become a ghost or similar spirit on its own. Thus, a ghost able to successfully employ this power instantly slays the person that it is used upon. I am told there is no more painful way to die than having one's life force ripped free of one's body in this fashion."

-- Dr. Rudolph Van Richten, TSR's Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts, reprinted in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Volume Two.
1. Van Richten is not always right. :)
2. To be able to do that trick in 2e the ghost should have been a 4th rank ghost. With the saving throws in 2e being fixed i.e succeed with a 10-12 or more that wasn't so much a problem.

In 3rd edition even a 1st rank ghost can have this attack and it is clearly supposed to be dangerous but not outright deadly.
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Post by Mortepierre »

Mad Skipper wrote:Player's Handbook 3.0, page 224.
Ah, that explains it. Curious that they chose to delete that when they upgraded to 3.5... :?
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Post by Jakob »

Well... Couldn't an adventurer whose body has been taken over (and thus made a ghost too) try to possess his own body? :|
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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Regarding the passage from the VRG, I'll just quote what DeepShadow said in a private message when we were trying to figure this out for Reckonings: "Unfortunately, the Inhabit Bodies ability is not the same as a 3.5 ghost's Malevolence power. Malevolence is basically the Dominate Victims ability, found five entries prior to Inhabit Bodies. The 3.5 version of Inhabit Bodies can be found in Gazeteer 1, under Tristen ApBlanc."

Not saying he's any absolute authority outside his game, but I agree with him on this one and didn't feel like re-researching it. :)
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Post by Mad Skipper »

alhoon wrote: 1. Van Richten is not always right. :)
:lol:

Touche...
2. To be able to do that trick in 2e the ghost should have been a 4th rank ghost. With the saving throws in 2e being fixed i.e succeed with a 10-12 or more that wasn't so much a problem.

In 3rd edition even a 1st rank ghost can have this attack and it is clearly supposed to be dangerous but not outright deadly.
"This power is handled as per the description of the 5th-level wizard spell, magic jar (in the Player's Handbook), though with special conditions. A ghost with this ability can freely target a specific individual for attack, unlike a mage casting the magic jar spell. Further, the range at which this power can be employed is 20 feet per magnitude of the ghost. Thus, a third magnitude ghost can attempt to inhabit a victim's body from up to 60 feet away.

This power allows the potential victim to make a saving throw vs. spell. A method for figuring a modifier to that saving throw is discussed in the Player's Handbook with the magic jar spell description. If the Dungeon Master prefers a simple method for determining the modifier, a -1 to -5 adjustment to the die can be applied, per the ghost's magnitude."

-- Inhabit Bodies rules explanation, as found in the TSR products Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts, and Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Volume Two.

That last bit reads to me like a DC adjustment to a Will saving throw. DC 15 + ghost's Charisma modifier + ghost's rank...using the formula found in the Monster Manual 3.0, under the ghost's Malevolence description.

OR

DC 10 + 1/2 the ghost's Hit Dice + ghost's charisma...using the formula found on page 183 of the Ravenloft Core Rulebook 3.0. This includes the Charisma modifier as determined by the ghost's rank (Table 5-2: Ghost Rank Modifiers, page 182).

That would make any ghost dangerous at lower levels (in my opinion fittingly), but with the game mechanics as they are a higher level character would be less vulnerable to this form of attack (naturally). Aside from the fact that a successful save grants immunity to further attacks for one day.
"Unfortunately, the Inhabit Bodies ability is not the same as a 3.5 ghost's Malevolence power. Malevolence is basically the Dominate Victims ability, found five entries prior to Inhabit Bodies. The 3.5 version of Inhabit Bodies can be found in Gazeteer 1, under Tristen ApBlanc."
True...especially with the key phrase "merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane" as found in the ghost's Malevolence description...thanks for pointing that out.

And it does appear that Tristen ApBlanc's Undying Soul SQ has been specifically modified to include the 2E Inhabit Bodies ghost extraordinary power. A good way 'to up the evil' of Tristen, but if he can do it, then it's only logical to assume that other ghosts can as well, maybe limited to a rare breed of ghost.

And there you have the answer to the question (as an alternative to the merging of souls):

"Undying Soul (Su): If he then successfully uses his malevolence ability on a male humanoid, he destroys the victim's soul and replaces it with his own. The character's mental ability scores change to those of Tristen, who retains all of his skills, feats, and abilities. Over the course of the next week, Tristen's new body transforms to match his original physical ability scores and appearance."

-- Description found on page 132 of Sword Sorcery's Gazetteer Volume I.

Thanks Gonzoron (and DeepShadow), thanks for making me research and type out all those references when all you had to do was speak up...!

:P :lol:
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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Mad Skipper wrote:thanks for making me research and type out all those references when all you had to do was speak up...!

:P :lol:
heh... sorry bout that, Skipper. It's been a while and I had to dig up old messages to remember our findings...
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Mad Skipper wrote:["Undying Soul (Su): If he then successfully uses his malevolence ability on a male humanoid, he destroys the victim's soul and replaces it with his own. The character's mental ability scores change to those of Tristen, who retains all of his skills, feats, and abilities. Over the course of the next week, Tristen's new body transforms to match his original physical ability scores and appearance."
Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is something we can accurately apply to interpreting ghosts' abilities in general. This sounds far more like one of Tristen's powers as a darklord -- even the special quality's name is exactly the same as we find in other darklords whose spirits migrate to another host-body upon defeat, like Hazlik or Harkon Lukas, IIRC -- than as a ghostly power inherent in his (already unique) creature-type. The fact that his version of Undying Soul incorporates one of his native powers as a ghost doesn't mean anything so far as the survival of a host's personality affected by conventional Malevolence/Inhabit Bodies is concerned; Harkon's spirit ousts a dire wolf's from its body, if his present form is slain, even though he's neither a ghost nor endowed with natural powers of possession.

It's a quibble, but I just think that Undying Soul shouldn't factor into any discussion of non-darklord powers like Malevolence. Almost by definition, powers granted to darklords are supposed to break the rules.
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