Evil PCs

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Ail
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Evil PCs

Post by Ail »

Hi folks,

this must be one of the most asked questions in a RL forum, but here it is, I have this problem now in my campaign.
One of the PCs started as CG (at least in his sheet) but the player has said to me several times that his aim is to lose his character to Power Checks.
I thought at the moment that this could be indeed interesting, but the point is that I am failing in extracting the drama from the possibility. Granted, I've been too distracted by the actual running and forgot to prompt most of the Power Checks he should have made. He does it on purpose, I guess, for me to call for one. But the point is that the character is blunt of feelings, shows no emotion and, according to the player, will not feel regret nor sorry nor really any bad thing when bad things happen to him. When he found he was betrayed by his lover he simply kicked a rock and got over it. He has no family and he will not get attached to anyone else emotionally (character definition). He wants sex, but not love nor relations, and his attitude towards the rest of the party is like "I'm in my corner, these things are mine, you do by yourself", unless it is a matter of survival and he'll die if he does not cooperate.
From the player's definition, he follows the Dragonlance definition of Evil, and as he said to me, that's: he believes the world belongs to the strong and these have the right to take things by force.
Also, his a physical character, so the only way he knows to solve problems is to do it with violence

Now, I do not wish to turn his PC into an NPC. I'd really like to see a full descent, but how can I add the dramatic tragic tinge of Ravenloft? How can I force him to feel some regret, some thing at all?
I will talk to him, I will try to convince him to change slightly his playing, merely for the flavour of the thing (and because this is RL, not DL), but do you have any techniques that can improve this, that even a blunt hard rock as a heart can be sorry? Things that hit him dead on and that tell him "this happened only because you did this, You suffer the result of your own actions, and there's no one else to blame".

I probably have to put more dedication and attention as a RL DM, but any help is welcome.

As an aside, I had thought of making him into a Clay Golem in his descent to darkness. Does anyone know of anything more appropriate?

Thank you all.

Ail
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Post by Scipion_Emilien »

I think your first problem for adding the dramatic fall towards evil, is that your PC is already evil (even if his sheet say otherwise). In fact I would go as far to say that your character is insane (even evil people care for something and have emotion).

I mean, how do you want to do a tragic opera if the main character feel nothing? I played a similar story with a paladin who fell to become blackguard, and he wonderfully play each step of his fall (LB, LN, LE). Character deepness is essential for a falling to grace, this often those same sentiments use for good that can become corrupt and the twist caricature of their former glory.

As for the power check, i recommend that you don't say to the players when you role one to build the suspense. And personnally, i use the rule that evil creature are less able to fail power check than good and neutral one (perhaps this will help him realise a little that even if the players fail the power check volontarly, the character should nt do it consciently and systematically)
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Post by Stygian Inquirer »

Firstly, I think that making a character to deliberately lose them is not a good idea because there isn't the struggle of atoning and the conflict of good and evil. I think that when that is the case, the player is prepared to lose the character and therefore will try to screw with the DM as much as possible.

Secondly, I think that your player may need a reality check. From what you have said, it seems that not only he does not realize that there are consequences to his actions but his evil has no depth. I would make sure that he has an encounter with a person much more evil and much stronger than him to put him in his place. Like say, if he pisses off the Kargat or the Talons, have him encounter one of their agents and realize how his evil has no depth in comparison to others. Give him something to shoot for if not scare him straight. :twisted:
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Post by Samael Hands of Stone »

Well I'm not sure that I have the kind of answer you are looking for as I know very little about your game or your style of play, but you seem to be a very dedicated storyteller that genuinely cares for the enjoyment of his players (a sometimes rare characteristics in DM's today), and so I will try to offer yous some suggestions.

First off, I find your player's concept somewhat thin in terms of playability, or at least I refuse to believe that someone like that could really be devoid of emotion. What I mean is that even the cruelest, most apathetic characters have feelings and motivations, they have just been twisted or scarred by their experiences and now exhibit these psychological wounds through a variety of "evil" behavior.

This guy was screwed over by a lover, that right there is you key. By the sound of it, your player is going for that whole "disaffected and apathetic" character approach, where he can deliberately sabotage all of your efforts to create dramatic interactions by simply hiding behind the fact that his character "doesn't care". I once played with a friend of mine that attempted that and regretted doing so after the DM simply started to treat him as if he were a Dread Companion. When he complained, the DM simply said, and I quote, "I don't really care". Extreme example here, but you get the point.

Maybe what you want to do is have a sit-down with the player and re-examine the purpose behind his character. Going down the Dark Power drain can make for a great ride, but only if there's something for the DP's to corrupt, to take away. If this guy is a poster-child "evildoer", I imagine the DP's either ignoring him or "flipping the script" on him by suddenly making his life a party (thus antagonizing him by not giving him what he wants). Hey that might actually be an an entertaining way to do it.

The more he wants to fall, the more good things happen to him. He says he needs no one, people begin to befriend him everywhere and women swoon at the sight of him. Inn keepers treat him like royalty, etc. The more he tries to be a jerk, the more people respond positively to him. After a while he's likely to crack (thus getting what he wants), or he might end up developing relationships that he cares for. At that point you flip the script on him again!

I am eeeeviiil!

good luck
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Post by Jasper »

Hmmm....

No family....

No emotional ties....

No loyalty.....


*Rubs hands with evil glee*

I would put him on the Path of the Forgotten terror track as he realy has nothing to keep him tied to this world

Stage one: The caress

PC gains the ability to cast Daze 3 times a day but each time it is cast the Pcs form becomes slighty transparent for three rounds

Stage two: Enticement

PC's body and possesions begin to fade out and become intangable and semi transparent at random. Any physical or missle attack made against the PC has a 10% chance of passing right through. However any physical or missle atack made by the Pc has a 10% of being made while intangable and passing right through the target.

Stage three: The invitation

PC can now become intangable at will and pass through solid objects but now him and all his possessions are nearly transparent giving him a OR of 2.

Satage four: The embrace

PC is now completely silent and invisable while intangable but finds it much harder to turn back. Pc must make a Fort save at DC 15+1 for every turn spent intangable or be stuck in that form untill next sunrise.

Stage five: The creature

PC is no longer bound by gravity while intangable and operates under a perminate Fly spell effect but now finds returning from this state extemely difficult. Pc must make a Fort save at DC 20 +1 for every turn spent intanagble or remain in that state untill the next sunrise .
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Post by Fido »

Jasper wrote: Stage one: The caress

PC gains the ability to cast Daze 3 times a day but each time it is cast the Pcs form becomes slighty transparent for three rounds

Stage two: Enticement

PC's body and possesions begin to fade out and become intangable and semi transparent at random. Any physical or missle attack made against the PC has a 10% chance of passing right through. However any physical or missle atack made by the Pc has a 10% of being made while intangable and passing right through the target.

Stage three: The invitation

PC can now become intangable at will and pass through solid objects but now him and all his possessions are nearly transparent giving him a OR of 2.

Satage four: The embrace

PC is now completely silent and invisable while intangable but finds it much harder to turn back. Pc must make a Fort save at DC 15+1 for every turn spent intangable or be stuck in that form untill next sunrise.

Stage five: The creature

PC is no longer bound by gravity while intangable and operates under a perminate Fly spell effect but now finds returning from this state extemely difficult. Pc must make a Fort save at DC 20 +1 for every turn spent intanagble or remain in that state untill the next sunrise .

Awesome awesome awesome!!
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Re: Evil PCs

Post by MatthiasStormcrow »

Ail wrote:One of the PCs started as CG (at least in his sheet) but the player has said to me several times that his aim is to lose his character to Power Checks.
Right off the bat that's trouble. What's fun about losing your character? He doesn't mention anything about redemption, so he 'intends' for his character to not be played past a certain point. Kind of like saying "my aim is for my character to die and never get resurrected." Hunh? Why not play a character that you like enough to keep playing, or else, why are you playing at all? I'd be sorely tempted to give him what he wants....immediately. Fake the rolls on his powers checks, make him fail them automatically, turn the character into an unplayable NPC in ~30 minutes of playing time, and tell him to roll up a new one. Doesn't really matter what he turns into - though a genuine-article statue seems more appropriate than a clay golem - golems in Ravenloft tend to be *highly* emotional. The intermediate powers on the way there might seem similar, though - so he wouldn't be able to tell the difference until too late.

I'll grant you, that's pretty harsh. Also, having him fail a lot of checks right away runs completely contrary to what I would expect to happen, so read on for other possible solutions.
I thought at the moment that this could be indeed interesting, but the point is that I am failing in extracting the drama from the possibility. Granted, I've been too distracted by the actual running and forgot to prompt most of the Power Checks he should have made. He does it on purpose, I guess, for me to call for one.
For sure, seeing a good character fall to corruption is a huge opportunity for drama. But that doesn't sound like what's happening here, so don't beat yourself up for failing to squeeze drama from a stone. Also, in a substantial way, as the DM, you ARE the Dark Powers. Especially when it comes to powers checks. The Dark Powers, however, do not like being called deliberately - so someone commiting evil acts in an effort to deliberately fail a Powers check, to my mind, has absolutely zero chance of success. The Dark Powers operate on their own whims, and make a point of showing that anything they do, they choose to do on their own terms.
But the point is that the character is blunt of feelings, shows no emotion and, according to the player, will not feel regret nor sorry nor really any bad thing when bad things happen to him. When he found he was betrayed by his lover he simply kicked a rock and got over it. He has no family and he will not get attached to anyone else emotionally (character definition).
And here's the other problem...the Dark Powers are much more attracted to characters that are emotionally commiting evil acts. The 'Dragonlance' definition of evil he's following is still evil in Ravenloft - but not the kind that gets you turned into a darklord - more like a fiend's evil. Fiends don't get turned into Darklords because there's no *drama* in that kind of evil.

Thinking some more about it, here's what I'd do. Announce that you're awarding everyone a bonus 'roleplaying' feat that fits their character. Give the other characters all something like 'Investigator' or 'Athletic' - whichever of the +2 to two skills feat seems to really match the way they've RPed their character. Give this player, for his bonus feat, 'Cold-hearted' from Legacies of Blood (it's in the D'Honaire family section). Hand him the whole feat description from the book and let him read it. That should get the point across.
Now, I do not wish to turn his PC into an NPC. I'd really like to see a full descent, but how can I add the dramatic tragic tinge of Ravenloft? How can I force him to feel some regret, some thing at all?
You don't wish to turn his character into an NPC, but it doesn't sound like he necessarily feels the same way. Does he know that turning into a Darklord makes the character an NPC? If he's a real RL newbie, I suppose he might not - in which case, you'd better explain that post-haste.

Whether he knew that or not, if he's not willing to have his character care about anything - you can't make him. There's really no in-game way to force a player to care about the events of the game. But really, the best solution is probably just to sit down and talk to him, find out what's going on, why he's being this way. Explain that it doesn't really work in Ravenloft, and ask him to change. If he won't, ask him why he's playing, what he wants from the game. If he's just looking for mindless hack n'slash, or the opportunity to play a villain, Ravenloft is the wrong setting for him, so you'll need to work something out.

In the best case scenario, he just didn't totally understand the nature of Darklords' evil, and he'll be willing to work with you to roleplay out the tragic descent of a hero into a darklord. In the worst case scenario, you'll have to ask him to take his dice and play elsewhere.
"You see, what you thought was a gibbering abomination from the pits of Hell was really just a fruitbat. We get 'em all the time in Salt Lake."

-Benjamin Dean, Doomtown Ep. 8
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Re: Evil PCs

Post by Isabella »

Is there a reason that character acts like this? Maybe you should give him the feat "Hollow One" if he doesn't have a better reason.

Either way, I agree that you shouldn't give him what he wants. That character doesn't sound appropriate for Ravenloft as either a hero or a villian. Even Mordenhiem had emotions.
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

if I might...

the one thing to keep in mind, as it has beensaid before is that the dark powers give you what THEY want you to have, NEVER what you REALLY want. Basically, even while you are falling to temptation, at the first stages, evertying seems to be going your way, you get abilities that "help" you, with relatively little inconvenience. However, at some point, the "rewards" are outweighed by the penalties.

But above all, a good fall should be insidious - the character should have no real incling of it until it is too late.

Now, I would say that your player seems to lack what is required to play a proper character, let alone one whose purpose is to stage a dramatic fall.

Me and Jason Am(brus) had somethign like that in the works, but only because I know that he could pull it off and keep his character struggling to the very end. And, of course, it was all to make the dramatic confrontation of one of the other characters with his nemesis all the more satisfying to the game and the players as a whole. Niot the same thing.

But! If you THINK he can be redeemed, read on...

It is obvious to me that hte character already HAS a deep emotional connection with something: himself.

So, if that's the only thing he seems to care about. How about a good curse? That slighted woman comes after him, 1 year later, holding an infant in her arms. She pleads with him, asking him to return, to reconsider, that they could still have a happy life together, that he has a moral obligation to the child... Pour it on! Keep it coming until you feel it's too much and then add somoe more. She's been cast out of her village for having a child out of wedlock. Whatever you need to make it happen.

And then, either one of two things will happen: he will begin to see the ramifications of his "evil. (which may turn him around) or , more likely, he will sprun her viciously. Then, have her mouth a curse, something like... hmmm... well, there are a few possibilities, but here's one:

"Look at the innocence here in my hand! Look, you coward! And I am as innocent, honest and pure as this 3-month old babe! And you have spruned us both! For it is the bearer of innocence and warm life and you are the hollow mockery of evil and cold death. Then so be it. On the head of this child do I swear. if you will be no father to sweetness and light, than may you bear the load of a son, not in your image, but whose eveil will have you bowed to ITS will. From aspirations of might and eveil, you will be but a lackey to true darknes. may you and your child live a long and happy life."

Maybe you have her kill herself then, leaving the child behind, or kill both of them... Or even let HIM kill them if you must... but...Then, what you do, is you make him "pregnant" or the host of some malevolent entity :evil: . And this entity takes control of his character whenever you feel it is appropriate,. This will work for the folowing reason: yeas, he will beome more evil and powerful, but he won't benefit from that power - the "entity" feeding off oif him and using him will. And if this character loves himself enough and wants that power for himself, he may have to reconsider his sdtance in the matter. :twisted:

And then, whenever he tries to perform an evil act, he finds that he freezes. or goes into seizures, or the "being" takes control of him. Something suitably nasty. After all, he has spurned his own child and the mother of that child all in the name of his own quest for power!

Make him understand that being evil is in large part to be a prisonner of evil, always in service of its appetite. And if he has no appetites, well. He's not human. So, maybe you want to turn him into a zombie. Or a plant.

then again, in this case, this particular player may be undeserving of that kind of effort on your part. Which is too bad, because otherwise, you guys could really have some fun.

people like this make me :x but best of luck - I suspect you'll need it with ths guy.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

One interesting option you might consider trying with this feels-nothing PC is to place him in a situation where he's infused with powerful emotions, from an outside source. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of "Ravenlofty" ways to do that:

1) Send the PCs to Ghastria, where they find their way into the mansion of d'Polarno (sp?), the resident darklord. This villain drains the life-force from victims into a magical portrait, which then feeds their energies back into him, giving this normally-bland, unfeeling man a temporary injection of passion and vigor. Arrange events so that the uncaring PC accidentally gets exposed to one of these energy-transfers, and becomes charged up with an intensity of feeling which he's never encountered before.

2) Some of the alchemical techniques described in "Van Richten's Arsenal" involved extracting emotion from one subject, then potentially transfering it to another. Give your PCs the chance to use alchemical draughts of this sort as a defense against an imminent threat (e.g. let them drink "hope" before facing a ghost whose aura induces despair), but inform the players that they must act out those infused emotions in their role-playing, in order to obtain the in-game benefits of the ingested feelings.

For a nastier option -- one that might bring this player out of his "nothing affects me" mode, yet will comply with his self-destructive goals for the PC -- you could make either one of these effects addictive for the emotion-lacking character. After having gone so long feeling virtually nothing, the PC finds it unbearably tempting to seek out another infusion of artificial emotion ... so tempting, his quest to get another "charge" from the portrait or another sip of alchemical essence may lure him into evil. Essentially, he'd be playing a junkie whose only yearning is for his next "fix" of artificially-induced feelings.
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Re: Evil PCs

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Ail wrote:As an aside, I had thought of making him into a Clay Golem in his descent to darkness. Does anyone know of anything more appropriate?
A golem's probably a little extreme. A zombie might be better: the more "dead" to emotion and compassion the PC becomes, the more of his flesh will turn cold and numb ... and the harder it'll be for him to muster the willpower to take action on his own, as per the more-catatonic forms of failed Madness checks. Near the end of his Terror Track, he might become susceptible to the commands of powerful undead, necromancers, and evil clerics, eventually forsaking the PC party to serve some terrible master as an unfeeling, unthinking slave.
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Re: Evil PCs

Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Rotipher wrote:
Ail wrote:As an aside, I had thought of making him into a Clay Golem in his descent to darkness. Does anyone know of anything more appropriate?
A golem's probably a little extreme. A zombie might be better: the more "dead" to emotion and compassion the PC becomes, the more of his flesh will turn cold and numb ... and the harder it'll be for him to muster the willpower to take action on his own, as per the more-catatonic forms of failed Madness checks. Near the end of his Terror Track, he might become susceptible to the commands of powerful undead, necromancers, and evil clerics, eventually forsaking the PC party to serve some terrible master as an unfeeling, unthinking slave.
Definitely, the way to go is to grant him his wish,. but instead of becoming a powerful force of evil, he becomes an insignificant evil - like a zombie with just enough brain power to regret it for the rest of its days.
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Post by Ail »

Thank you for all the answers.
Just one doubt I had: where can I find the Hollow One feat?

Thank you once again. There were many good ideas here.

Ail
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Post by Isabella »

Don't quote me on it, but I think it's Champions of Darkness.

The little list of feats on the site has this:

Hollow
CoD
Not good alignment
Immune to level drain, possession and similar mind threat; OR /increases

If the feat is the same one I'm thinking of, they neglected to put that the character can never be inocent and never be ressurected (since, basically, the character is a souless walking bag of meat).
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Isabella wrote:Don't quote me on it, but I think it's Champions of Darkness.

The little list of feats on the site has this:

Hollow
CoD
Not good alignment
Immune to level drain, possession and similar mind threat; OR /increases

If the feat is the same one I'm thinking of, they neglected to put that the character can never be inocent and never be ressurected (since, basically, the character is a souless walking bag of meat).
You can quote him on this :wink: - he's totally right.
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