EVERLASTING SORROW. A PALADIN IN RAVENLOFT?

[Samael Hands of Stone]

The trick to lessen your fears of committing "transgressions" against the sacred canon texts (lol) is simple; write what you know. Like Cabbage said, do your research, get to know your domains, but don't fret too much over the details. If you make the story mainly about Merrick and his thoughts/feelings, and you concentrate on the character, the other details should fall into place.

Remember that motivation is key. It is the character's fuel, his purpose for existing. Creating a compelling character is all about establishing his goals in a way that the readers can relate and maybe even support. A writer, in my opinion, has a lot to gain from creating emotional ties between their characters and the reader. Make them share their hopes and dreams, their fears, their aspirations.

If you're indeed writing this story for the readers, than I personally would be interested in the journey of a tireless knight, that has given up everything to set out on a manhunt for his nemesis. He has breached his Code, forsaken his reputation, abandoned friends and family to embark on this obsessive chase across the realms. It has shades of Moby Dick with Capt. Ahab being blinded by his quest.

So many interesting things could bleed out of such a story. Maybe Merrick has become so twisted by his relentless hunt that he doesn't realize what he's become. Maybe he doesn't even realize that his nemesis is long dead, and never made it into the Mists. Yet the Dark Powers have somehow deluded him into thinking that his enemy is there. Maybe the DP's took him for precisely that reason; he has undone himself and doesn't realize it.

I kind of ran away with myself there, sorry.

[Scipion_Emilien]

Perhaps it's a "collateral damage" thing, the DP wanted merrick carry and they end up with a meal hard to digest with the great wine they wanted.

[Brandi]

Brief hijack here:

Remember I mentioned Solomon Kane? Here's a description of him, from Howard's story "The Moon of Skulls":

"A hunger in his soul drove him on and on, an urge to right all wrongs, protect all weaker things, avenge all crimes against right and justice. Wayward and restless as the wind, he was consistent in only one respect-- he was true to his ideals of justice and right. Such was Solomon Kane."

As neat a description of an independent, adventuring paladin as any I've ever seen.

[Samael Hands of Stone]

Brief hijack here:

Remember I mentioned Solomon Kane? Here's a description of him, from Howard's story "The Moon of Skulls":

"A hunger in his soul drove him on and on, an urge to right all wrongs, protect all weaker things, avenge all crimes against right and justice. Wayward and restless as the wind, he was consistent in only one respect-- he was true to his ideals of justice and right. Such was Solomon Kane."

As neat a description of an independent, adventuring paladin as any I've ever seen.

Good quote, very well said.

[Manofevil]

Actually I like the stuff about Solomon Kane, too

The trick to this is, get to know the realm he pops in VERY well.

For instance, say he were to pop up in Mordent wearing full plate and a bastard sword. Well, full plate and a bastard sword in any of the domains involved in the treaty of four towers might signify that he's Falkovnian. In Mordent, he would be appoarched in a very 'we don't want any trouble' sort of way. Now instead of Mordent, make that Borca. In Borca, there will most likely be more hostility towards him.

As stated in the FAQ, the three best places for an outlander to come into RL are Darkon, Barovia and Mordent. Personally, I like Mordent, because Mordentish is similar to english (and since most D&D games are based in english, Mordentish could easily have enough similarities with common). The Mordentish are superstitious folk, but would never burn anyone at the stake for mere appearances. But on the other hand, I'm sure you already have a starting point in mind (be it Mordent, or whereever). Just get to know the starting domain very well and read over the gazateer.

I hear what your saying here, but as I said this is way before the Grand Conjunction and not many years after the creation of Sithicus. Very much in the time period first described in The Black Box. Do the Gazetteers actually address this period? And does the four towers treaty date back that far? Wish I had the Gazetteers. I'm actually going to start him in Barovia, I think. Seems like a good idea. I don't think I'll have him face Strahd right away or even work up to it. I think he'll get his feet wet there and then move on to another domain, Kartakass I think, where he'll face his first Darklord. With what this guy's got on his resume', I think he'd be a match for a wolfwere. I've got some ideas for a possible confrontation with Strahd later, but I'm still setting it up. I've got the feeling that once I iron out the details of his early days the rest of the story will follow easily. I just don't want to make it too easy or awkward for him at first. Aclimating to RavenLoft can't be easy for ANY lone outlander no matter their qualifications. I've never actually seen it done in game or story form and I want it done right since it may be one of the most important parts of the narrative.

[Augustus]

I just had a thought; Ravenloft is the only setting where it would make sense for a paladin to multiclass with rogue. Carry on with the more intelligent discourse if you will:)

[Dominique]

I just had a thought; Ravenloft is the only setting where it would make sense for a paladin to multiclass with rogue. Carry on with the more intelligent discourse if you will:)

Mrr? How so? The only way I can think of that would be to get the "I'm part of an underground freedom group" skills, but that's more CG. Or do you mean just for general subtlety?

Don't get me wrong, a paladin/rogue would be cool, but I'm puzzled.

[Undead Cabbage]

A Paladin multiclassing with rogue levels would be HARD to do, but essentially very ideal if you could do it.

Rogues, however a lot of people think of them as Chaotic, actually can be LG. The idea is that they are using their skills for a LG cause. A lot of GMs rule out the possibility of this. I like to call LG rogues 'whipped rogues', in that they may have all these neat skills and capabilities to take advantage of any situation, but are still following a set code. Sort of like a really whipped Husband or Boyfriend.

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

I just had a thought; Ravenloft is the only setting where it would make sense for a paladin to multiclass with rogue. Carry on with the more intelligent discourse if you will:)

Mrr? How so? The only way I can think of that would be to get the "I'm part of an underground freedom group" skills, but that's more CG. Or do you mean just for general subtlety?

Don't get me wrong, a paladin/rogue would be cool, but I'm puzzled.

It all depends on how you build your rigue. (and also, paladins in Ravenloft may come from domains where armour is "passé" so they would have fewer odds of being encumbered and cuold use the abilities. And, also, the Equestrian feat and a sort of mounted folk hero angle could work welll.

But...

hide and Move Silently make for good ambushes vs. evil beasties. (with sneak attack) Listen, Spot and Sense motive are great for sixing up people; gather Information, possibly intimidate... decipher script is alwatys useful. Tumble, balance... Jump, climb.

We tend to picture rogues as "thiefly types" but they really don't have to be.

Stay away from breaking any LEGITMATE laws, and use your skills against true minons of evil (not mobsof brainwashed peasants, say) and I think the concept work really well. I have an ongoing Lawful Good dwarven cleric with levels of rogue. My rationale was simple: as an outsider originally, (with the OR to boot)he needed the recon skills to overhear conversations and find the truth, so he could slink out into the darkness, kill the threat or whatevr, and then dissapear befoew anyone knew it was him - he didn't want a reputation that would attract attention to himself.

He's gettgin close to the point where he can qualify for Order of the Guardian. Really: it works well. almost... too well....

[Johann Foxgrove]

The Paladin Rogue???
Mmm... let me think about it.

I think it is possible (Well, actually, it is possible). But as I said, to play with a paladin character is demanding, a paladin-rogue will be a real challenge to any good Ravenloft player!!! Are you thinking again in the Batman Paladin? OK, it is possible, but as DM, I'll suggest a very good reason for a Paladin to have rogue abilities. One thought came to my mind. Was not Van Richten a LG rogue in the 2E description?. OK, He is not paladin, but you could use him to teach the paladin those abilities.

[Brandi]

I like to call LG rogues 'whipped rogues', in that they may have all these neat skills and capabilities to take advantage of any situation, but are still following a set code. Sort of like a really whipped Husband or Boyfriend.

That's a touch crass, innit?

Me, I'd call an LG-- or really any lawfully-aligned-- rogue a 'commando', as per military elite units who do do things like infiltration, sneak attacks, etc. but are part of a very organized group with a set heirarchy of command.

[Augustus]

Any successful paladin in RL I would hope could understand the benefits of subtlety. You are all thinking of rogues as theives or killers with no morals. This is not always the case and I can think of several examples of what a lawful good rogue might be: a loyal spy, a law-enforcement officer perhaps in an undercover sense, a commando, a scout etc. A paladin with rogue levels is simply one who knows that charging in headfirst isn't the smartest thing to do. Why bash down the door and let evil know your comming when you could have already been in the room the whole time? I don't think its THAT hard of a concept, but all in all was just a passing thought.

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

Any successful paladin in RL I would hope could understand the benefits of subtlety. You are all thinking of rogues as theives or killers with no morals. This is not always the case and I can think of several examples of what a lawful good rogue might be: a loyal spy, a law-enforcement officer perhaps in an undercover sense, a commando, a scout etc. A paladin with rogue levels is simply one who knows that charging in headfirst isn't the smartest thing to do. Why bash down the door and let evil know your comming when you could have already been in the room the whole time? I don't think its THAT hard of a concept, but all in all was just a passing thought.

Amen.

And an interesting tkae: A lawful good character/ paladin does things for the benefit of the whole, of communities, governments, etc. he/she does not act for himself. Maybe it is his lot to have to sacrifice the luxury of keeping his hans clean at all times. For the greater good, of course.

having said this, it would be unlikely that a "paladin/rogue" character would pop up in my mind as the perfect expression of any character I would be likely to think up...

[Rotipher of the FoS]

having said this, it would be unlikely that a "paladin/rogue" character would pop up in my mind as the perfect expression of any character I would be likely to think up...

How about a PC inspired by Harriet Tubman...? Steadfastly loyal to her people and cause, working within a tight-bound organization that left no room for mistakes, risked herself selflessly time after time for the benefit of others, a la paladins; yet she also snuck around, stole "property", and picked a heck of a lot of locks in her time.

[MatthiasStormcrow]

What about a rogue who reformed their ways and tries to redeem themselves? They'd still use the skills they've learned, just to different ends. They might even still make use of their underworld contacts (to pick targets? "We could kill...everyone!"). A lot of you seem to be stuck with one specific sort of rogue in mind, the 'typical' rogue with the 'typical' rogue skill set. If you can't imagine a LG rogue, it's just because you can't get your head to think outside the box. Sure, you get 8 skill ranks a level - does that mean you have to put them in Open Lock and Bluff? Even if you can't imagine ways to use those skills that still fit with the paladin's code, there's about a billion other things a rogue can be good at. What about a rogue who's simply an acrobat? Why would an acrobat be more/less likely to be LG? Or, to take some character concepts that are all PrCs in various books, what about a Royal Explorer? Streetfighter? Heck, Shadowbane Inquisitor and Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer *require* Lawful Good alignment.

The idea also crosses my mind of an 'informant'-type rogue; a good guy who's stuck infiltrating an evil organization for the benefit of some other good guys. Carries with it all the opportunities for roleplay in the typical mob-informant set-up: how does the character react to being made to do evil things to keep his/her cover? Does the character even like having to be an informant? What about any friends they make among the organization they're spying on? etc., etc.

having said this, it would be unlikely that a "paladin/rogue" character would pop up in my mind as the perfect expression of any character I would be likely to think up...

Can't say the same, personally. A redeemed ex-pirate, Captain Cortez, Rog8/Pal19:
http://madstepdad.proboards24.com/index ... 1097083521

Reckonings, besides being an experiment in epic-Ravenloft, is interesting from a 'paladins in Ravenloft' standpoint, as there are two very different types of paladins in the party - Balin's a saint, a more traditional kind of FR or Dragonlance, heavy-plate wearin', dragon-ridin', evil-smashing' knight, and there's Cortez who's much more unconventional. And they're both having an interesting time of it in Ravenloft.

Ravenloft is probably the best setting for paladins to really roleplay in, IMHO. Certainly not the best place for them rules-wise, but *eh*. The black-and-white morality that Paladins sort of require is right there, codified and enforced by the Dark Powers. Who, of course, will go to great lengths to tempt a paladin into falling - and what's more dramatic than a paladin's fall?

As a side question, why is playing with a Paladin in the party so hard on the party? I suppose it could be demanding if the rest of the party tends towards morally questionable acts, but otherwise I would think that having a paladin to help keep you on the straight and narrow path would be a benefit, especially in Ravenloft (to avoid those pesky DPs checks!)