Jander Sunstar, CE?

[Undead Cabbage]

At first I somehow doubted that this idea for a topic had not been done before. But then I did a search, and from what I saw, not much so far.

So I was wondering, why does the CoD state that Jander Sunstar is evil? First off, his description as being the type to go out of his way to help others doesn't really fit that criteria. Nor does his faith towards the Morning Lord. The character simply doesn't seem 'Evil' by what the game seems to have defined as evil. CN, maybe. Maybe even CG. And sure, he has vampiric tendencies, but he spends all that time trying to keep them at bay. Would someone who is trully evil try and hold-back evil intent?

[Joël of the FoS]

Well, I see that, even if we told you not to, you tried to read this dangerous and insidious manual known as Champions of Darkness ...

Mmmm...

Seriously, you should take a look at the errata - Jander's alignment is corrected as CN.

Joël

[Bluebomber4evr]

So I was wondering, why does the CoD state that Jander Sunstar is evil?

Because Champions of Darkness sucks?

*drum beat+cymbal crash*



Seriously, I think the editorial staff must have missed it....and a whole bunch of other things....basically 90% of the content in that book, now that I think about it...

[JinnTolser]

At the time, the writers defended the choice to make Jander's alignment CE rather than CN or CG, by saying "According to the Monster Manual, vampires are chaotic evil." I wasn't aware that had been erratad, but I'm certainly glad to hear it.

[Stygian Inquirer]

The "vampires are always chaotic evil" I believe means 90% of all vampires are chaotic evil according to the monster manual.

[JinnTolser]

Call it a misreading on their part then. But that was what they said, and they repeated it like a litany when people protested that it didn't make sense for Jander's character.

If that was officially erratad, did Strahd also get changed to Lawful Evil like so many people thought he should?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

The "vampires are always chaotic evil" I believe means 90% of all vampires are chaotic evil according to the monster manual.

For "Always" alignments, the chance is more like 99% IIRC. Basically, it means "unless the DM has a darn good reason, it's Alignment X".

However, the character of Jander Junstar is clearly intended to be one of those "darn good reason" exceptions to the norm, which is why Christie Golden invented him in the first place. I'd say that he's at least CN in alignment as he's portrayed in CoD, and probably still CG when he appeared in "Vampire of the Mists" and related short stories.

[Undead Cabbage]

^smacks himself with a war hammer^
^regenarates for a round^

Of course, the Errata! How foolish of me.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. And as far as the rule of Vampires 'always' being CE, if we all played by the rules then a lot of us wouldn't be here now, would we .

Besides, Jander isn't the only Vamp that isn't CE. Consider Lady Kazandra of the Kargat, LE if I may recall.

Thank you everyone, and have a good one.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

At the time, the writers defended the choice to make Jander's alignment CE rather than CN or CG, by saying "According to the Monster Manual, vampires are chaotic evil." I wasn't aware that had been erratad, but I'm certainly glad to hear it.

It wasn't defending, it was trying to cover their ass, badly.

The whole book was a mess. I'd have much rather prefared it if they'd held up their hands and said, "We admit it, we made a mistake and we're sorry," rather than the guff they spouted after it's release. My favourite was when people where complaining that they had to heavily alter and rewrite parts of the book if they wanted to use it in their campaign and the developers said, "It shows people are using the book! It's a good thing!"

[Joël of the FoS]

No there wasn't any result of the debate for Strahd's alignment.

I was then suggesting he is mostly lawful evil in spirit, and sometimes quite CE too when his emotion takes control, so I would switch it to NE.

Joël

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

No there wasn't any result of the debate for Strahd's alignment.

I was then suggesting he is mostly lawful evil in spirit, and sometimes quite CE too when his emotion takes control, so I would switch it to NE.

Joël

There was some discussion over Strahd's alignment.

I think he's more LE than NE or CE, because he considers himself to be the Law.

[Joël of the FoS]

I think he's more LE than NE or CE, because he considers himself to be the Law.

That is what I thought first, but remember he can act dangerously and without concern to the others under the control of his emotions (hate or love).

So he isn't purely LE for me, that is why I sugested NE.

Joël

[Scipion_Emilien]

I don t think that the fact that he is the law of barovia made him lawful.

He don t relie on an order to keep this law, he keep it himself in killing those that transgress it and change it at his whim. This is in my opinion a chaotic evil comportement, someone who want to micromanage all because it give him more control if he have to change something swiftly.

Personnally I read I Strahd, My war against Azalin as the confrontation between chaos and law on the evil side. Azalin was ready to trust his advisors and give them great power. Strahd was always doing thing by himself.

Remember how Strahd won the war: by killing Azalin most powerful minion. Because Azalin as place to much power in them, he was unable to move after this loss.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

I don't know about that, exactly.

Both Azalin and Strahd played a riddiculous game of cat and mouse, restrained by of all things, the word of honour. The two made specific references attesting to the importance of keeping their agreement. Azalin oftened bemoaned his mistake of accepting Strahds patronage, while Strahd almost gloated at getting Azy to commit. In fact, Azalin restrained himself from confronting strahd, even after he knew that the darklord was no match for him, until he was out of Barovia and out of the compact.

Though Strahd may not be the best example of Lawful Evil, remember that Azalin is equally chaotic. Azalin stole and murdered with impunity, attacked at long standing institutions such as the mercenary guilds, percipitated a war simply out of spite, and generally behaved like a bull in a china shop.
In fact, its rather odd that Azalin was so restricted by his oath to Strahd's hospitality, for when he first arrived in barovia he forced himself upon a nombelamn's house, and against all law and custom, proceded to commit arson and robbery.

[Undead Cabbage]

My position is that Strahd is NE, if not CE.

Strahd likes his position, but frankly doesn't do too much to keep it. Besides whenever somebody gets loud enough to thoroughly cheese him off, he's perfectly fine with staying in castle RL, staring at posters of Tatyana in a swim suit all day.

The order in Barovia is kept, at least in my interpretation of the realm, by the infamous Sheriff. The Sheriff's alignment as NE was probably another brain fart if you ask me. He's lawful, through and through. He's the guy that keeps Barovia in line for Strahd.

One characteristic that all LE characters seem to have (Azalin, Mordenhiem, etc.) is the tendency to make their world THEIR way. Strahd isn't interested in shaping anything; he just won't take crap from meaningless peasants. Azalin on the other hand likes to keep things under his own thumb. LE enemies tend towards being control freaks.

The perfect example of a LE character that I always introduce new players with is (I'm sorry for the non-RL reference) Darth Vader from Star Wars.