The Official Kargatane Q&A thread

Discussing all things Ravenloft
Willowhugger
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Post by Willowhugger »

Tobias Blackburn wrote: Really. I heard that it wasn't selling well. That's one of the reasons they pulled back on the Gazetters.
Realize that selling well and not having the finances to do stuff is oftentimes confused. Take Star Wars and WEG for example. In the case of Star Wars, they were selling spectacularly well but the company was doing abyssmally elsewhere. The Gazeteers were selling awesomely while the rest of the books...not so much. In fact, not so much all round White Wolf who was redoing their entire line at the time and preparing for a HUGE shift that required practically all their money.
Tobias Blackburn wrote:I'd love to see Ravenloft come back, but I don't see it happening. If Wizards pulled it back to keep it from competeing with their other products, they won't put it out or let anyone else touch it either.
Ironically, it's probably for only one Product. There's no reason to not continue it after it's initial sales. If you question the cut throat nature of things, then don't.
If the artistic team had lost interest, Arthaus would have switched over to a different team.
White Wolf's Ravenloft team was the only one that was interested. Don't overestimate the company's size.
I realize that there are a number of reasons, but the fact that it removed from the market is a major blow to it coming back into print. Getting the rights will be very expensive and any company that can afford it is likely to have some other setting they are pushing already.
Yes and no, it was running out of steam honestly. I swear, while its' wonderful....who really wants the Bloodlines of Evil book?
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Post by Tobias Blackburn »

Willowhugger wrote:
Tobias Blackburn wrote: Really. I heard that it wasn't selling well. That's one of the reasons they pulled back on the Gazetters.
Realize that selling well and not having the finances to do stuff is oftentimes confused. Take Star Wars and WEG for example. In the case of Star Wars, they were selling spectacularly well but the company was doing abyssmally elsewhere. The Gazeteers were selling awesomely while the rest of the books...not so much. In fact, not so much all round White Wolf who was redoing their entire line at the time and preparing for a HUGE shift that required practically all their money.
I realize that that selling well and financial problems don't go hand in hand, but they wouldn't have dropped it if it were profitable for the company. There were also reports that they were backing away from the Gazetters specifically because they weren't selling well.
Tobias Blackburn wrote:I'd love to see Ravenloft come back, but I don't see it happening. If Wizards pulled it back to keep it from competeing with their other products, they won't put it out or let anyone else touch it either.
Ironically, it's probably for only one Product. There's no reason to not continue it after it's initial sales. If you question the cut throat nature of things, then don't.
No company is that stupid. Heroes of Horror is a one shot product. Taking away the rights for an entire setting for that single release to get out and then sell the rights again would make no sense. You would hurt your reputation beyond repair with the other companies (and never be able to make a similar deal again) and you're removing something that gives you a risk free income and would improve sales of your one shot. The Ravenloft books will still be available for order until next June, so it won't effect the sales of Heroes of Horror in the slightest.
If the artistic team had lost interest, Arthaus would have switched over to a different team.
White Wolf's Ravenloft team was the only one that was interested. Don't overestimate the company's size.
Everyone who worked on Ravenloft, Developers included, were Freelancers. They came from outside the company, and you can bet your booties that there would have been other freelancers who would jump at the chance to take over.
I realize that there are a number of reasons, but the fact that it removed from the market is a major blow to it coming back into print. Getting the rights will be very expensive and any company that can afford it is likely to have some other setting they are pushing already.
Yes and no, it was running out of steam honestly. I swear, while its' wonderful....who really wants the Bloodlines of Evil book?
Actually, I found Legacy of Blood to be a refreshing change that both deepened the setting and offered a number of new options. I thought that Masque of the Red Death (and the lost Jade Dragon) should have entered into their own lines instead of taking up slots on the Ravenloft one (despite the connection), but I can see how a glut of Gazetters and Guides would hurt the setting.

Of course, neither of us know exactly what went on. I just don't see WotC releasing the setting again for the significant future. The market is already diluted as it is.
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Post by Steve Miller »

who really wants the Bloodlines of Evil book?
Beats me. Was such a product even on the schedule?

Now, another "Legacies of Blood" product I would have purchased and/or contributed to. And if you're thinking about "Legacies of Blood," then maybe you need to read it before getting snarky. I didn't do ANYTHING in my chapters can excluded characters of any alignment. Hell, the Hiregaards are set up as good characters to the last one. And I think the characters populating the land are far more interesting than the backdrop, which is what the GAZes mostly dealt with.

The GAZ series was only going to get lamer as time when on, I think. Once the Seas were done, there was also little reason to buy all the books, because two out of three islands would have been of no interest to most potential consumers.
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Post by Willowhugger »

Oh don't get me wrong Steve, it's an incredible product with an immense amount of detail. It's absolutely everything and more if you want to run one of the Scions of the Houses of the Darklords.

I actually said "Bloodlines of Evil" as not to reference the specific work (and I should have been a bit more direct about it and stuck to the more universally panned works than one that whose chief flaw seems only that it's a bit overspecific)

And it's not my place to comment on the decision behind the justification.

It just seems....and forgive me for saying so....an odd choice for a supplement compared to say "Van Richen Guides" or the Gazeteers.

I will bow to your wisdom on deteriorating quality though. Though gawd damn if I didn't want the Shadowborn Gazeteer more than any other product.

Honestly, part of the problem I detected with Ravenloft was that a lot of area had already been covered.

It's probably a good thing I wasn't in charge since the first thing I would have written was ANOTHER updated Van Ritchen's Guide to the Old School creatures for third edition. "Van Ritchen's Monsters of Horror Compendium"
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Post by Tobias Blackburn »

Willowhugger wrote: I will bow to your wisdom on deteriorating quality though. Though gawd damn if I didn't want the Shadowborn Gazeteer more than any other product.
I know what you mean. I would have killed for Sanguina and the Nightmare Lands.

Ah well. Maybe a human sacrifice will help. :wink:
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Post by Steve Miller »

Willowhugger wrote:Oh don't get me wrong Steve, it's an incredible product with an immense amount of detail. It's absolutely everything and more if you want to run one of the Scions of the Houses of the Darklords.

I actually said "Bloodlines of Evil" as not to reference the specific work (and I should have been a bit more direct about it and stuck to the more universally panned works than one that whose chief flaw seems only that it's a bit overspecific)

And it's not my place to comment on the decision behind the justification.

It just seems....and forgive me for saying so....an odd choice for a supplement compared to say "Van Richen Guides" or the Gazeteers.

I will bow to your wisdom on deteriorating quality though. Though gawd damn if I didn't want the Shadowborn Gazeteer more than any other product.

Honestly, part of the problem I detected with Ravenloft was that a lot of area had already been covered.

It's probably a good thing I wasn't in charge since the first thing I would have written was ANOTHER updated Van Ritchen's Guide to the Old School creatures for third edition. "Van Ritchen's Monsters of Horror Compendium"
Between you, me, and the world, I think "Van Richten's" anything was an odd choice. But that's just me. 'Walking Dead' was good work, and so was 'Arsenal' and 'Shadow Fey,' but I think VR should have stayed dead, and I don't think the Weathermay Twins would 'honor' him by slapping his name on books he didn't really write. (I understand marketing, but I don't think the Twins would be concerned about it, even if WW was.)

Adn while I'm at it, if one could make a Go-Back machine, I think the GAZ series might have been a bit neater if it had presented the transitory nature of Ravenloft's geography a bit firmer up front.

In Vol. II, S. could have traveled from Hazlan, through the Mists, to to the Amber Wastes cluster (or the Shadowborn one) or maybe some Island of Terror that hasn't been mentioned since 'Darklords'. Maybe this could have been saved until Vol. III. I think it would have spiced up the series significantly.

(Why didn't I bitch when WW was actively publishing Ravenloft? Because I think it's bad form of people who were involved with the line and walked away/aren't involved to complain about the current crop of releases. Now that the line is dead, I can express opinions.)
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Post by Willowhugger »

Thanks Steve for your thoughts and certainly I'm glad you're free to express them now, they're very evocative.

My own opinion on Rudolf Van Ritchen's Death was expressed in the Bleak House write up (it was unnecessary).

If I had any complaints about the Walking Dead guide (one of my favorites) and Shadow Fey, it's really only the fact that Laurie and Gennifer aren't nearly as interesting as Doctor VR. Scratch that, they might be as interesting and even work as love interests where the Doctor clearly didn't but they function better as NPCs than narrators.

Doctor Van Ritchen was able to convey repulsion and loathing for the Undead far better than the Sisters were and you honestly understood his credentials as well along with his 'scholarly writing style.'

The....enthusiasm...for lack of a better term of the sisters was disturbing for the work honestly and disrupted the tome's function. It was more "isn't this nifty?" than "that blasphemous horror that slew my son reflects in every vampire's eyes that stares down at me."

I think they were greatly done but I don't know if I wouldn't have preferred the original premise of the Sisters merely compiling the Doctor's already extensive notes and the majority of the work still done in his own hand. (Van Ritchen's arsenal is fine the way it is but the Walking Dead could have used some more "Oh dear god!")

Weirdly, S was far closer to Doctor Van Ritchen than the Sisters and properly conveyed the respect the monsters deserved (the only horrific weathermay sister moment I could remember was the "grandmother under the stairs" which was a great moment). S may have been evil and a necromancer (or arcanist) but stuff was CREEPY around her and you can't fault her scholarly habits.

(Great, now I have to do the Van Ritchen's Walking Dead and Arsenal as reviews)
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Post by Steve Miller »

We're going to have to agree to disagree on Laurie and Gennifer. I loved 'em both from the moment I typed the first few words about them.

As for Van Richten's end, I never would have retired him--that's why I got myself attached to the 'Death of Rudolph van Richten' project, and why all the endings are non-endings where the Old Vampire Killer goes. But, since he HAD been shelved, I'm committed to the notion of him needing to stay on the shelf.

At least until the Day of Armageddon....

As for S... she is clearly the anti-Van Richten. I imagine she was even conceived as such, to some degree or another. I'm sure those to whom this thread is devoted could reveal if that was the case or not. (In doing so, they can reclaim it from this mini-hijack I've staged. I really just spoke up because I got the feeling you were crapping on 'Legacies of Blood,' a book which I will proudly stand by any day.)
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Post by Steve Miller »

Oh... one last thought on 'Van Richten's X'...

It's always been my opinion that the books in-world were actually titled 'Guide to Vampires,' 'Guide to the Ancient Dead,' 'Guide to Hags,' and so on, and so forth.

Perhaps the Weathermay written/compiled texts are the same way? Does any of the flavor text say they're using VR's name on the covers? I don't remember, and I'm not in the mood drag the books out. (They're not in my office, and my butt is feeling very heavy this night....)
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Post by Willowhugger »

Steve Miller wrote: As for S... she is clearly the anti-Van Richten. I imagine she was even conceived as such, to some degree or another. I'm sure those to whom this thread is devoted could reveal if that was the case or not. (In doing so, they can reclaim it from this mini-hijack I've staged. I really just spoke up because I got the feeling you were crapping on 'Legacies of Blood,' a book which I will proudly stand by any day.)
I do apologize again. It's a wonderful book. It was also very useful when I did the reveal that one of the players was Ivan Dilisyna's son (and Ivana Bortisi's lover reincarnated...brrr).
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Post by Steve Miller »

Please don't think I was offended! I don't expect you to keep apologizing! (I think anyone who's seen me on rampages will tell you that these posts would be of a very different tone, and the thread would be halfway to being locked by the moderators. :) )
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Post by Ryan Naylor »

Our Hero was intentionally made an anti-Van Richten, yes.
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Post by alhoon »

To Ryan: Thank you very much for Clarifying S.

I have all the Gaz's. . . I have read them all more than once. . .
I haven't guessed even the half of what you said.

- She actually died in Verbek? :shock: I believed she was either saved by the Kargat, or has been teleported there.
- She is an Azalin's clone? :shock: I believed she was GC's daughter!
- Her quest is actually about GC's children? :shock: I thought that when the GC dropped by to say "hi" was because he had some plot about S or Azalin, not the other way around!
- Azalin's plot involves various Dukkars, vistani and the tribe of Hyskosa? :shock: I found a bit confusing that when the vistani turned on S in the Gaz, Azalin isn't surprised. Here's the answer. :( I just thought they were hired by someone else (I've bet on Strahd).
- The vistani (at least the Hyskosa tribe) are working against Azalin's plans? :shock: He didn't seem to bother with them at all when they attacked.
- The GC is trying to get the hell out? :shock: Isn't it a bit too late for that? What's his corruption points?

PS. about the redemption and such. . . killing an orphan in such way in Mt Lament doesn't seem much improvement to me. She is sorry for her Daughter but that doesn't make her any better. . .
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Post by Le Noir Faineant »

:D :D :D Things are finally making sense... :D :D :D

Thank you, Ryan and Steve!

I am certainly not the person to ask for this, but would you (and the others) be interested in a permanent Q&A thread? -Let's say, one for the Kargatane, one for the DD... :dreams:

But really, although the line went finally down, you all can be very proud of your work. RL will certainly live on! :)
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Post by Don Fernando »

So the Gaz Story arc is finally making sense :lol: , too bad it has to be this way that we find out these important facts. I regret that the actual Gazeteers didn't gave us enough info about the story arc, hoping that one day the next Gaz will be published.
They took their time, but in the end the line was cancelled...... :cry:

Thank you Ryan and Steve for the information shared! :D
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