A concept it might be interesting to explore

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A concept it might be interesting to explore

Post by Manofevil »

I've recently come across a concept that might be interesting if applied to RavenLoft. If only on this board.

As a comic book affictionado, I recently read one called 'JLA: Earth 2'. In this book, DC's Justice League is confronted with an Anti-earth, where everything that positive is negative and everything that's negative, positive. As such, The Justice League's counterparts, the Crime Syndicate, were twisted mirror versions of the League
For Example:

Ultraman, the Anti-Superman, was a raging violent criminal psychotic who would burn a person to ashes with the heat vision at the drop a hat. He had originally been an astronaut who'd been lost in deep space. Some alien intellegence found and tried to repair him with its limited knowledge of human physiology. He was returned to Earth with a superhuman body and a twisted mind

Owlman, the Anti-Batman, is Thomas Wayne Jr, Bruce Wayne's younger brother, who blames his father for the day his mother and brother were murdered in front of him. He underwent the same intensive training as his counterpart to become the ultimate criminal and spends all his time tormenting his father who is now police commissioner and the city of his birth

Each of the Crime Syndicate torments all around them, some more than others, in varied and interesting ways. Each trying to feed a certain appetite. Much like certain DarkLords.

Now imagine the same concept applied to RavenLoft but in reverse.

What would an Anti-Azalin look like?
an Anti-Strahd?
or even an entire Anti-RavenLoft

Let's see if we can't come up with what they would ALL look like. Consider it a challenge. Keep in mind that, as with Owlman, the original character needn't necessarily be the person who becomes the counterpart.

I'll get you started:

Young Gabrielle Aderre's Mother told her constantly of the love that her father had born for the both of them. Though she had never known him, Gabrielle just knew he was a kind and decent man who'd undoubtedly given his life for the both of them. He must have been, for he was a giorgio and her mother a vistani. When her mother passed away, Gabrielle realized how much love, in all it's forms, meant to her. She looked around and saw terrible things: wife-beating, adultery, prostitution, etc. She realized that love needed to be nurtured and shorn up on occasion. Using her abilities as a Witch, which her mother had helped her cultivate since childhood, she constantly watchs over the people around her, reminding them of the love they feel for each-other. Husbands and wives are reminded of why they married. Children are reminded of times their parents looked after them when they were sick or scared. Parents are reminded of times their children made them proud. Gabrielle made this her life's work even after she found out the truth about her father.

Behold the Anti-Gabrielle. What do all of you think
Last edited by Manofevil on Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

Strahd is easy. Sergi VonZarovich survives the assault from his brother becoming the lightlord in his place. But that might be expected and too obvious...
Sergi might instead be the evil brother and Strahd noble, perhaps making a pact with death in order to save Tatyana from the twisted warrior that is his younger brother. It is the only way the elderly Strahd can challenge the younger soldier. Strahd makes a pact with Death, surrendering his mortality and any chance of being with his beloved Tatyana in order to prevent her from suffering.

So how exactly would Ravenloft-2 work? Heroes and noble souls are given power binding them to a land while they are rewarded? Or are they equally tormented like their evil doplegangers? What is the world like?
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Post by Jennifer »

Hi all,
To turn Ravenloft inside out is a very interesting concept. This would be interesting to work out further.

Ravenloft is a prison, where bad people are kept and punished for their crimes. caught up in this are a lot of suffering innocent bystanders ( the common citizens) and a few noble heroes (the PC's). If this concept would be turned inside out, Ravenloft would be a paradise ( perhaps one you can never leave (why would you want to?)), where 'lightlords' dwell who do their best to make life better for the bystanders. Each in his own specifc way. They would then be continiously thwarted by the horrible machinations of the evil villains (the PC's).

i think this is a concept that could work, but only as a short adventure. The PC's dwell in normal ravenloft, and due to some sort of freak occurence, they enter white ravenloft. There they find many of the same people, but everyone is insanely happy, and the actions of the PC's make everything worse, no matter what action they take. Actually, the NPC's have no need for the PC's as they are happy already. This could lead to some strange situations.

This could perhaps happen in some sort of nightmare lands adventure or one involving a magic mirror.

jennifer
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Post by Hrtofdrkns »

Negative Van Richten would be a vampire himself. Posibly the darklord of his own domain. You could still have darklords, just everyones personality is opposite of what it should be.

Negative Azalin would be a paladin. Or a cleric of the morninglord or ezra (the lawful good sect)

Negative Godefroy was murdered by his evil wife and daughter for money. His ghost continually torrments their ghosts.

Ebonbane is an angelic spirit that has become trapped in shadowborn manor.

Trisstessa cares for abondoned children in her moutain home.

The gentleman caller is a celestial who is siring half-celestials to acomplish some greater purpose. He is most proud of Malicho, a kind and loving being.

That's all I got for now.
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

I dunno, Owlman (negative Batman) wasn't super-powered. He was similar and human.
I see reflected VanRichten and the rest not as racial reverses but personality and motivation. Rudolph Van wouldn't be a vampire, he'd still be a vampire hunter, he'd just be unremoselessly evil and cruel. Possibly envious over the gift his son recieved and desperate over his mortality. He spends his life hunting after his son trying to "end his misery" but really he just can't bear the idea of living alone.
Azalin, for example, should also stay a lich but be a good natured scholar that does not seek out unlife but accidently becomes undead because he's too preoccupied with work to die.
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Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Yeah, Azalin wouldn't have botched the Grand Conjuction, he would have deliberately prevented it.

I think I may like this thread....
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Post by alhoon »

Anti-Azalin: A supergenious cleric that uses its powerful mind and increadible healing abilities to spread happiness and hope in the world. Even though he personaly diminish his own power (even health) to help others gain what they need, the Light Powers constantly boost him.

Anti-Strahd: A kind nobleman who cares deeply for his people and does anything in his power to turn away the flock of redheads that's harassing him wanting mostly his money and beautiful castle that also doubles as a free inn for those that pass through Barovia. He never puts away from his thoughts the evil couple of Anti-Sergei and Anti-Tatyana. Murderous tyrants both that married only to increase their power.
However Anti-Strahd made a beneficial pact with Life and now with the help of his trusted general Anti-Disilnya fight back the Gundarakite invaders and the darkness of the Anti-Sergei and Anti-Tatyana.

Anti-Alanik Ray: While this Crimelord is almost unheard of, he commands many minions of darkness. Although some would believe he would work along the other notorious psycho killer, the vampire Anti-Van Richten, they are deadly enemies.
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Post by Manofevil »

Jennifer wrote:Hi all,
To turn Ravenloft inside out is a very interesting concept. This would be interesting to work out further.

Ravenloft is a prison, where bad people are kept and punished for their crimes. caught up in this are a lot of suffering innocent bystanders ( the common citizens) and a few noble heroes (the PC's). If this concept would be turned inside out, Ravenloft would be a paradise ( perhaps one you can never leave (why would you want to?)), where 'lightlords' dwell who do their best to make life better for the bystanders. Each in his own specifc way. They would then be continiously thwarted by the horrible machinations of the evil villains (the PC's).
I've got an idea on this.
The Anti-RavenLoft is structured similarly to RavenLoft. I've always believed RavenLoft to be a battery generating misery and horror for the purposes of the Dark Powers whatever they may be, so the Anti-RavenLoft must be something similar but for an opposite purpose. Each 'LightLord' has a domain in which they are constantly helping those around them in their own unique way as you said, but the populace of each domain would come to them so badly damaged that they have to spend several lifetimes even coming close to making the difference they set out to make. They do have the effect of bringing hope to their domains, however, in the same way that their counterparts have of bringing despair to theirs. What's more, they are more than willing to reach out to any villainous PCs and help them deal with what keeps them evil trying to turn them good.
Jennifer wrote: i think this is a concept that could work, but only as a short adventure. The PC's dwell in normal ravenloft, and due to some sort of freak occurence, they enter white ravenloft. There they find many of the same people, but everyone is insanely happy, and the actions of the PC's make everything worse, no matter what action they take. Actually, the NPC's have no need for the PC's as they are happy already. This could lead to some strange situations.

This could perhaps happen in some sort of nightmare lands adventure or one involving a magic mirror.

jennifer
This is pretty much what happened in the comic. The single super-hero of Anti-Earth, Alexander Luthor, came to Earth looking to recruit heroes to help him. The Justice League manages to trap the Crime Syndicate and tries to dismantle all the criminal organizations that have sprouted up all around them, Unfortunately, the League fails to realize that their presence on Anti-Earth assures that the Crime Syndicate will be drawn to Earth. Ten minutes after the Syndicate vanishes the League and Anti-Luthor manages to return themselves to Earth but not before the Syndicate cuts a swath of destruction of biblical proportions. Owlman, however, discovers the reason why the syndicate would fail on Earth: as the syndicate always succeeded on Anti-Earth due to the general populace' greed, ignorance, and fear, they would always fail on Earth due to the general populace' wish to live in peace. Heroes would rise by the dozen or thousand to strike them down, as Ultraman learned when he was beaten by the Martian Manhunter whose counterpart he'd murdered years before. What's more, the entire chain of events had been a plan put into motion by the Anti-Brainiac who'd been captured and enslaved by Ultraman years ago. He'd set it all up to cause a collision of the Earth and Anti-Earth and use the energy from the corresponding dimensional explosion to fuel his evolution from a twelfth-level intelligence to an nth-level one. The only way for the League to prevent this was to put everyone back where they came from. In a situation where only evil can win, send in the worst evildoers you have.

I never really thought of this as a gaming adventure but rather as just an exercise in conceptualization, but it really could be a pretty decent long campaign. I guess if the PCs DID cross over into Anti-RavenLoft, Anti-PCs would have to cross over to RavenLoft, possibly causing enough damage to attract the DarkLords attention or even become DarkLords themselves.
Do us a favor Luv, Stick yer 'ead in a bucket a kick it!

So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

The problem with having a whole "anti-Ravenloft" exist is that it's unlikely to be conducive to cool adventure scenarios. What's the point of sending PCs to a place where the *good guys* have an unbeatable edge (i.e. with "anti-darklords" controling the land and quashing any evil before it can do any damage)?

OTOH, I could imagine an adventure that might center on encountering the long-lost good *sides* of certain present-day darklords' nature. For example, perhaps parts from the Rift Spanner and the Apparatus could be integrated in an experiment by Styrix, resulting in the temporary creation of an alternate Core accessible through the Spanner ... a realm inhabited by benign counterparts to darklords, a la the Alchemist-Strahd from I10. These wouldn't necessarily have to be all-powerful, landbound lightlords -- certainly, the human Strahd from I10 wasn't -- but rather, examples of what those darklords MIGHT have become, had they made better choices in their lives.

In this scenario, the PCs would have the opportunity to meet these benign counterparts, inform them of their evil alter-egos' crimes (probably to the duplicates' horror), and ask about possible strategies which heroes in the real Ravenloft might employ against the villainous originals. It'd be a nice opportunity to explore the backstories of these vital Ravenloft characters, without necessarily forcing PCs into a direct confrontation with villains too powerful for them to defeat.
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Post by VAN »

It can be as a divination spell, but there not the Dark Powers that answer the question, but the Light Powers or the anti-darklord. However, I prefer play RL as it is. :roll:
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Post by Willowhugger »

I say the better reason is the PCs are just THAT good.

One day, they wake up in Prime material ravenloft to find themselves in a land that vampires are extinct and the last of the truly EVIL villains have been but they're wanted crimminals who have WRECKED *HORRIBLE* havok on the place.

Meanwhile, the Anti PCs (let the PCs play them) are working from a special document given to them by their Hyoska (actually the same Hyoska) that rips open a doorway into the Dimension of Light.

Vampires, Demons, and so on pour forth with the PC Anti-doubles having effectively the ability to keep a fragile alliance of Dark Lords intact from Azalin to Strahd to Dracov.

The Prime Material Ravenloft it turns out CREATED Ravenloft to exile all their evil selves too!

(or this is complete BS)

And the irony is that is why everyone is so nonaggressive and happy.

Do they restore the prison or let the Demiplane be annihilated as a means of sucking up the planet's evil?
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Post by The Lesser Evil »

I don't know either. I like subtle parallel realities rather than turn everything on its head. I like the Justice League cartoon show's take on an anti-League, the Justice Lords who took their crusade too far, took over the world, and became tyrants. I like the "dark mirror" version rather than a complete opposite approach.


David makes a good suggestion about Van Richten. He, instead of a vampire tyrant, could go too far in his monster hunt and use his considerable influence and contact to wage an open, indescriminant war on all those who resemble monsters. What if he had joined forces with the Tempestani inquisition, or ran "experiments" with monsters and live victims?
Or another Van Richten could have become fascinated with the unnatural events his family fell victim to. What if he studied monsters not to find ways to eliminate , but rather, protect them?

OTOH, an anti-X can present a view of the world would be like if different choices had been made. You can show how the world be like if the PCs had turned to evil or made just one little bad decision by making the party face an alternate, darker version of itself.
Edit: Another thing you can do with slightly different worlds is change a minor plot element and then take it from there. In the Justice League cartoon, the murder of Flash by Luthor motivates the parallel Justice League to form the Justice Lords. It has ripples throughout the series as the world and the Justice League worries, can this happen in our reality?
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

One thing to be cautious about, if you're going to try this, is to make sure you don't lose the essence of the original characters when you design their opposite-aligned counterparts. For example, a wicked Van Richten who's merely depraved and brutal wouldn't resonate, because he wouldn't really be the same character at all. OTOH, a Van Richten who couldn't bear to go through with killing his vampiric son Erasmus, but instead locked the boy up and fed him blood from patients who'd come for medical 'bleeding' -- then progressively resorted to covert bloodletting from unconscious patients; then to violence, kidnapping, and finally to murder, when the supply from his patients proved insufficient -- would be far more in keeping with his established personality.
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Post by Brandi »

Rotipher wrote:What's the point of sending PCs to a place where the *good guys* have an unbeatable edge (i.e. with "anti-darklords" controling the land and quashing any evil before it can do any damage)?
People still play Forgotten Realms, don't they? (oh snap)
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Post by Willowhugger »

Since the thread is already wonky, did anyone read the Sluggy Freelance arc about Torg entering the Dimension of Lame where everyone was inhumanly nice and it was invaded by Demons from the Dimension of Pain? (Who tore the place apart with no opposition)

It was amusing because Torg was seen as a monster as much as the demons for fighting them.
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