Review thread of VRGtRL 5e

[Joël of the FoS]

There are reviews at many places here, let's try to concentrate these here!

If you want to start a discussion on a specific point, make another thread (make sure we understand it is about 5e), but put but your reviews here to collect them all at one place.

Joël

[Joël of the FoS]

Got my copy yesterday and read the parts I wanted to see first (Intro, Barovia, Borca, Har'Akir), and browsed through the rest.

Wow, it tries to do many things but the book is short (250 pages). I'll say it once, there is no comparison possible with rich 3e Arthaus. But I know the book is aiming at 5e players who only knows Ravenloft by name or from CoS. If this book is a success, I think it will bring many new players here who will want to develop more.

A few pages to describe Borca is quite a feat, but it leaves those in the know unsatiated. The new curse and backstory of Ivana and Ivan seem to me like a proposition you'd find here for a domain rehash : some good ideas, but in the end it feels undevelopped. Which is understandable given the book tries to cover everything.

Oh, I do not like the new Ivana and Ivan. There is something too simple (simple like that you would find in a child fright story) about their backstory and current sketch. Ivana wasn't her father's choice as an heir so she killed everybody and now she craves for recognition? Ivan never gets out of his castle, makes toys, and craves company?

I'll use the book as a source of alternatives for my game, as I once wrote "think about it as a new version / remake of a story you like, as a new version of Alice in Wonderland".

---

The art is sometimes cool, sometimes dreadful when too steampunk.

[blackaeon]

The 5E VRGTR has a couple of good things in it, like the Dhampir (a lot of 5E players I've talked to like the option) and I'Cath gets a major upgrade from the vague sketches and Orientalist nonsense that surrounded it when it first appeared. A lot of the gender-flipping seems unnecessary, but it mostly happens in domains that had any sense of charm or uniqueness stripped out of them anyhow (Falkovnia, Dementlieu), so I don't really care one way or the other about it, it's not like it makes that much of a difference. Valachan, honestly, feels like a slap in the face and a no-win situation for anyone, and I'm going to say it right here, felt just a little racist (forcing an indigenous POC woman to kill a non-indigenous POC man and preying on people to commit blood sacrifices to the land has very weird contexts that don't sit right with me, Strix just replaced "colonialism" with a never-ending cycle of violence kicked off by a conflict between two people who had very ***** lives). Most of the book is drek, and while I certainly don't see myself running anything from it in WOTC's current system (I sold all my alt-art cover books and made a killing, somewhere like 400% profit; my issue with Wizards stems from their piss-poor treatment of organized play DMs and the stores that accomodate them), I also don't see much beyond I'Cath that I'd include in any Ravenloft games going forward. It's a lump of a book and I'm glad I didn't buy it, just borrowed a copy to read.

[CrackedMack]

I'll try to keep this short, maybe expand on a couple things later that I want to pull out and discuss, but maybe doing bullet points will make it easier.

The Good (IMHO)

• Most of the added mechanical stuff for PCs - lineages, class options, backgrounds, etc. - seem cool and have neat flavor attached to them. Functional 5e crunch is fine by me no matter what setting. I look forward to playing an undead-pact warlock in the service of Azalin.
• The horror genre breakdown, while a little broad, is a decent overview and could be useful as inspiration for what kind of themes and vibes and adventure could have.
• Among the many domains that have been re-imagined or expanded, I'Cath in particular stands out for me as being really interesting and actually makes me want to run it as an adventure.
• Kinda digging the new Har'Akir as well.
• Oh, and Kalakeri too.
• They managed to work a neat little nugget of an idea in with the Mourning Rail, which finally gives me an excuse to have a ghost train in Ravenloft.
• Is it bad that I think there's something going for Anton Misroi being a self-righteous prison warden instead of just another plantation owner in Souragne? I dunno, I think it can work. I personally might play around with that.
• Horror Adventures featured intriguing options that, again, have the mechanical implications I'm looking for. Survivors specifically feel like an inspired idea in theory, are something I definitely intend to utilize somewhere to see how it holds up in practice.
• New monster statblocks, and a fairly robust cast of critters on that front.

The Bad (IMHO)

• Reboot aside, my general biggest pet peeve is the lack of details that seems to be inherent in a lot of D&D 5e setting books, this included. Maybe it's the old fogey in me talking, but it lacks the richness and intimate little things that help truly inspire - things that seemed apparent in a lot of 3e material (and not just in Ravenloft). I had a similar problem with Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica, which took an incredibly rich and detailed setting, gave only the bare bones of some of it and hand-waved or outright ignored lingering plot threads left over from the past. It has a very disdainful "you figure it out" approach for anyone who cared about the old canon; Ravenloft certainly got the same treatment in this book.
• That point carries through into most of the domains and their darklords. Gender-swapping is not an issue for me in this case, but most of the rebooted lords of lack the depth of their counterparts from older editions, whether it's in their backstories, motivations or curses. I can (and will most likely) get into the specific nuances of what I mean, but there's enough cases where jotting them all down would take time. Maybe in a later post.
• Furthermore, no darklord statblocks? BIG points knocked off for that.
• I will single out that they done my boy Azalin dirty by removing him from the equation. There's the flimsiest attempt at notes and suggestions for Azalin but, as stated earlier, we are lacking abundant details, even in a reboot.
• Though I normally roll my eyes at people bringing up "wokeness" because it can often feel like a disingenuous criticism, I have to admit there's a certain pandering quality to some of the decisions that doesn't feel like a proper bid for inclusion and more like performative gestures, which reads as disingenuous to me.
• Jacqueline's slippers.
• The fact that Ezmerelda and van Richten's new backstories even contradict info presented in CoS really rubs me the wrong way. Guessing they decided to retcon the horror that is van Richten's actions leading to the deaths of the Radanavich clan, whether they are Vistani-posing bandits or not. That moment is seminal in their relationship and has a pathos that matters a lot in my own CoS, so it's genuinely irritating.
• Not a big fan of Erasmus hanging around as a friendly ghost.
• Both the Priests of Osybus and the Ulmist Inquisition bring in storylines that A) try to define the Dark Powers and B) make Strahd seem like a good guy until outside forces corrupted him and he fell from grace, not because of his own actions. No. Terrible.
• A final note: for a setting that claims to be about horror, this new interpretation of Ravenloft lacks a certain level of fun menace and I can't quite put my finger on what. It has teeth, sure, but not fangs.

So... Yeah. I know there's more I could unpack, but I'll leave it at that for now. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has tweaked the canon to serve his own ends in his own games, and so I intend to do for some of the material here. But there's some big cons in here, for sure.

[Charlatan]

(NOTE THAT THIS IS AN INCOMPLETE REVIEW BASED ON AN INCOMPLETE READING SO FAR- I MAY ADD MORE TO IT LATER)

When I first heard about this book, I was interested and excited.
When I heard about all the changes that would be made, my interest and excitement died faster than it had for any previous intellectual property (as The Last Jedi is a two and a half hour long movie, and reading a few internet articles took only a few minutes).

So, for the past couple of months, I was pretty much in the mindset of "They destroyed so much of what I personally liked about the setting- intellectually I know that this was due to them merely liking much different aspects of the setting than I did, and not actual malice towards my likes, but emotionally I'm still upset. I will not buy this book, nor recommend to anyone else to buy it."

Well, yesterday I discovered that a fairly new game shop had opened up pretty close to me and of course had to check it out. I went intending to get a couple of older 5th Ed books and saw this one the shelf. I grabbed the ones I was already going to buy and flipped through it to get a more full and first-hand survey of the 'damages' and what was still salvageable. I even groused about my concerns to the guy at the counter for awhile since it was really slow.

Despite myself I ended up deciding to buy it. I still have a lot of concerns/dislikes about the changes to the setting, but looking at it, it's not worth hating.

I can't really review the mechanical aspects- I haven't played much/seriously since 2nd Ed ending, and have mainly just been a reader/collector (Hell, the only 4th Ed books I ever bought were the Dark Sun Main Book and Monster Manual). I'll take on faith and other people's expertise that the gameplay mechanics are perfectly workable. My care was always about the story/setting as a lore nerd anyway.

The opening and closing chapters of different styles of horror and how to run a horror campaign are fine. All the pervious campaign books had them, just slightly tweeked as editions move forward.

I hate how the Core was broken-up/retcon it to having never existed, but I think I can see why they did that. Once isolated from each other, you're freer to make the domains more unique and play up the 'weekend in hell/trapped with nowhere to flee to' aspects. The large amount of gender-flipping feels pointless. The race bending isn't really bad, it's just a continuity quibble- I DO think the illustration of Harkon Lukas looks a little too much like a young Uncle Remus though! They really should have a least given him a slicked-back hairdo and goatee!

Barovia- is fine. CoS already did it in greater detail of course. I wish it were bigger, cause I like world-building. It doesn't need the territory is stole from Gundarak, but it should at least have Immol.

Borca- is fine. I like the old origins of Ivana better though.

Bluetspur- is... interesting? did I read the entry wrong or is it actually more set up as a domain that snatches people away from other domains and then spits back out the ones it doesn't use up ala and Alien Abduction? So in an adventure about Bluetspur you wouldn't adventure IN Bluetspur itself until the climax, before that you'd stay in another realm and just investigate disappearances and people coming back (if they come back at all) as raving madmen with odd marks and mutilations? That has promise. It's so hostile to regualr life in he first place that the only real plot to being in Bluetspur is getting the hell out of Bluetspur.

The Carnival- ...yea, I've never cared about The Carnival... the new version adds or subtracts nothing from an interest that was already 'zero'

Darkon- it got done blowed up but good! Azalin has run off (well, there's an uppity mortal wizard named Firan Zal-Honan running around the other domains making snide remarks about how he knows more than he's letting on in any case) and left his kingdom to fracture, literally. I never really like the Grim Harvest, am okay with this alternate result. The domain needs a new darklord (or it's old one dragged back kicking and screaming) or it'll eventually dissolved back into the mists it sprang from.

Dementlieu- really mixed bag. It's not BAD, but... it doesn't need to be Dementlieu. It could have just been it's own domain. Or had stated that the new darklord overthrew Dominic and that's why things are different. Cinderella-The-Red-Death is a good darklord, but she could have been given a totally new domain.

Falkovnia- really lost a lot. Zombie apocalypses just don't do anything for me. Genderflipped Darklord adds nothing.

Har'akir- cautiously positive. It's better than just being a spot of sand with a do-nothing Darklord. While I perfer Ahnktepot's original curse, it DID ensure that his domain wouldn't really be one worth visiting.

Hazlan- was always a bit weird compared to the rest of the strongly-Europeanish Core. Now it's weirder. Odd that Hazlik got Azalin's old curse now. Did they think it was inappropriate for the first known gay Darklord to be cursed to dream about reliving the day his enemies gay-bashed him? did they think it would make him more sympathetic to a modern audience? It never actually made him sympathetic IMO at least- he was an utter bastard who came from an entire society of utter bastards. Ultimately, this is a quibble to me; annoying but not a big deal.

I'Cath- vastly improved. However, that was never going to be a difficult task. I still need to read through it more thoroughly; my memories of old I'Cath almost caused me to skip it's chapter in the first place.

Kalakeri- IMO, Sri Raji, like Har'Akri, always suffered from being a small domain. Unlike Har'akir, Sri Raji's darklord's curse wasn't 'to have nothing worth actively ruling over'. Thankfully this is fixed in a major way, and Arijani is neither retconned away nor pointlessly genderflipped; he just isn't the Darklord but rather scheming to become one. Only real complaint I guess that they could have kept the old name and didn't for some reason.

Kartakass- is fine. Expanded upon in fact. I don't like some aspects of the new map, since in my mind the domain should be heavy with thick forests, but it's no deal breaker. I still shake my head a little at the Harkon illustration. Oh, his curse is a bit better than it used to be too.

Lamordia- a mixed bag. Making it more steampunk is good. Making it colder overall? Eh, okay. Making it's population centers smoggy sooty and polluted? Well, that does sorta come with the territory of 'steampunk'. Mordenhiem is ... *shrug*? On one hand it feels like they genderflipped Victor for literally no other reason than to have a lesbian Darklord... but like with Demetlieu, why not create an entirely new one? It doesn't feel creative. OTOH, at least they finally do what I feel should have been done from the start- the creator is the Darklord, not the creation. Viktor/Viktra had a choice between acting good and acting evil; they arrogantly felt that they were above such concepts and thus actually chose Evil by default. Adam was created evil by the gods themselves to punish Victor. He was never capable of 'falling from grace'. Victor should have been Darklord, with Adam as his curse. Viktra is Darklord; the things she did to gain her scientific knowledge was her Act of ultimate Darkness, and Elise running away and never wanting to do anything to do with her ever again (as well as never being able to recreate the super-science she used to rezz Elise) is her curse.

Mordent- is fine.

Richemulot- is fine. I do prefer Jaqueline's original origin as just one of a long line of wererats.

Tempest- is okay. They kinda merged it with The Shadow Rift, which thematically makes sense. As a result it's rather weirder than it used to be.

Valachan- an interesting idea. But it doesn't need to be Valachan. Like Dementileu this is basically a new domain that just has an old one's name. Even explicitly having Urik Von Kharkov as it's previous lord doesn't really change this, since his own history doesn't necessarily have anything to do the original's.

[direheroics]

I haven't said much in many years on the subject of Ravenloft. I was not in a good place decades ago, when my fandom was at its height. I'd like to think that I've done alot of work on myself in the intervening years. One thing that hasn't changed is my love of Ravenloft. So, like Duke Gundar, I put a stake in that guy, and let my corpse be paraded around for the amusement of onlookers.

The release of Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft for 5E is enough, however, to rouse me from my enforced slumber.

WELCOME TO RAVENLOFT

The key 'rules' of the setting, as presented, scare me, but I read on. Did they really just name some of the Dark Powers? Really? What?!

CHARACTER OPTIONS

This is a pretty mixed bag. The subclasses and lineages are ok, but this is a continuation of the trend of characters being outsiders to the populace. The Hexblood and Reborn are especially problematic here -- in 3.5 they would have made very interesting templates to tell stories, and so the ideas are intriguing. But as starting characters (balanced or not)? I want to come back to this idea at the end. I have to admit I really like the idea of Dark Gifts rather than the older Tracks of Terror; but there's no progression, no slide into darkness. This is the stub of something great - but not on its own.

DOMAINS OF RAVENLOFT

Relying on the tentpole idea that Domains follow "Nightmare Logic" ruins suspension of disbelief. The domains are clearly rewritten to be able to tell the story presented by that domain, nothing more or nothing less, and then escape. Ravenloft as a setting was created to get away from that idea -- and tell horror stories with lots of different facets. These feel presented to railroad you into picking the one that has the setting you want, and then going through the cycle of being stuck, figuring out how to 'beat the darklord' and escape so that all the participants can be reborn and play the role again for the next adventuring party.

The gender swapping could have easily been done with some consistency (which actually could have served a really cool story purpose like Viktra being Victor's daughter and her trying to finish her father's work and restore her mother). While I can understand wanting to present more inclusive stories, there are ways creative writers can do so naturally. Make the changes part of the ongoing story -- you wouldn't have seen the backlash that you are seeing now.

As an aside, the 'easter eggs' sprinkled in about the previous iterations, like Lyssa von Zarovich or Sithicus actually make it worse -- it's like thumbing your nose at something people have a great love for.

{TRAVELERS IN THE MISTS}

All that needs to be said about the Priests of Osybus and Ulmist inquisitors the better. I get the optics of changing the Vistani, but I would venture that most of us who have been adventuring the Mists for decades have already been presenting the Vistani as a complicated people. The stereotype was in I6 (the basis for 4E and beyond), but over time, the stories that were told with the Vistani rounded them out as a group. 2E and 3E made great strides at undoing the cariacture of gypsys -- undoing that does more harm than good.

Oh, and mentioning Hyskosa here when you have removed any notion of metaplot from the setting? {Grr}

{MIST WANDERERS}

This is really the same as above -- removing alot of the backstory and retconning it to be simpler makes these characters way more trope-y and one note.

They can't even get Zal'Honan / Zal'Honen spelled consistently (check p88 for one, p181 for another).

HORROR ADVENTURES

The discussion of horror styles is totally fine, and there's even some nuggets of real gold in here. That said, domains and darklords are now shuffled into this classifaction, narrowing the bands of the stories that can be told. Again, it seems to come down to what kind of horror stories does your group like, here's a domain that tells that kind of story, play it for a few sessions and then your characters can go right back to fighting dragons and orcs after a while with your dip into 'edgy' themes complete.

The saftey tools are good -- but as you can see there's some themes cropping up, this is something that good DMs have been doing for a long time anyway. And you're not going to get a DM who might appear in a CritCrab Youtube video to do them anyway. It's nice to see them -- but at the same time, it's freshman level material.

The House of Lament? Um... It's better than Death House.

MONSTERS OF RAVENLOFT

Barring the obvious problems with the Priests of Osybus and Ulmist Inquisitors, this is ok. It's definitely missing some of the most iconic Ravenloft creatures, but what's here is mostly useful.

--------------------

So there's two themes I want to return to. One is that the choices being made in this setting book (which is admittedly sparse) are made to reinforce the 'weekend in hell' gaming style. Here's a setting, here's you main villain, and here's what you have to do to escape. It's I6 over and over and over again. Rewriting the domains removes using any of the existing 2E adventures without major revision (especially ones that take place in multiple domains). Play horror games this way in D&D. What we all loved about 2E and 3E was getting away from that -- of being able to tell lots of different stories.

I ran multiple campaigns never leaving Ravenloft. The stories we kept coming back to were ones where the heroes were trying to fight the xenophobia, trying to carve out a safe place for themselves, their families, their neighbors. You can't do that when everything is a soulless construct, destined to repeat the same story cycle over and over.

My groups and I always played it like a Hammer Film -- all the beauty and color, the scared villagers just needing someone with a bit of knowledge and skill to step in where they couldn't. Or like Stephen Sommers 'The Mummy' -- pulpy adventure. Like "Dracula" where Mina was capable of strapping on a flintlock pistol and saving herself.

Which leads me to the second theme -- the setting doesn't trust the DM and characters to create the stories they want. Yes, the book is a toolkit for horror, but only if you play it a certain way. What if, as a DM and a group, we wanted to explore a horror domain where elves were all slaves and the heroes liberated them? Sure, I can tell that story, but I don't need this book to do that, and it doesn't help people explore difficult topics in a mature way. The greatest horrors are of the every day kind. But it's hard to generate sympathy for NPCs when they literally (not figuratively) have been put there as window dressing to your adventure -- it makes characters numb and go through the motions, rather than explore great stories.

The lack of metaplot, connection between domains, or any sort of history (735 is the only year that ever was and ever will be) means that NOTHING THAT THE CHARACTERS DO MATTERS -- which is ultimately unsatisfying.

So, here's my 2 bullet point conclusion:

1) The book was clearly written to return I6 and I10 as the base vision for Ravenloft, and all the work that was done to actually create a satisfying setting for other kinds of stories in 2E and 3E was removed
2) The book is aimed squarely at telling new players how to 'Ravenloft' rather than making Ravenloft a sandbox in which to tell a variety of stories. It removes nuance and depth in the service of one-off encounters that expose the game state rather than focusing on the narrative.

I think I'd actually have even been fine with a reboot -- as long as it gave me the tools to tell the stories my group and I want to play. This product tells me how to tell the stories that the authors want to tell. The story they want to tell is one of escaping the setting so you don't have to play in it anymore. Its no wonder everyone feels like there's no respect for something they love.

I'm lucky. I have all of the originals of everything Ravenloft (I even have 2 gold maps!). I don't need this book. In truth, it wasn't written for me.

I'm just disappointed that new players weren't introduced to the Ravenloft that I was, and will have to work so much harder to get the joy out of it I did. Luckily, there are those still converting old materials, keeping the flame alive. I hope they find you here, when they realize what the Red Box told us:

"The last, and perhaps most important, element of Gothic literature is the stalwart hero.... as long as there are men and women of courage and conviction, there will always be another dawn in Ravenloft..."

[Igor the Henchman]

direheroics, that was well argued, thought-provoking review, and it got me to see some things in a new light. Thanks for sharing.

[onmyoji]

Wow. I completely agree, direheroics. Excellent review. Even though I'm technically a Ravenloft newbie, only getting my start with Curse of Strahd three years ago (and spending the intervening time deep-diving into the old 2E/3E gold), I agree wholeheartedly with you too. Because I took the time to get into the lore (even though I never grew up with it or even played it!), I saved myself from the first impression of VRGtR as any kind of quality book.

Couple of your points I want to touch on though:

Relying on the tentpole idea that Domains follow "Nightmare Logic" ruins suspension of disbelief. The domains are clearly rewritten to be able to tell the story presented by that domain, nothing more or nothing less, and then escape. Ravenloft as a setting was created to get away from that idea -- and tell horror stories with lots of different facets. These feel presented to railroad you into picking the one that has the setting you want, and then going through the cycle of being stuck, figuring out how to 'beat the darklord' and escape so that all the participants can be reborn and play the role again for the next adventuring party.

The gender swapping could have easily been done with some consistency (which actually could have served a really cool story purpose like Viktra being Victor's daughter and her trying to finish her father's work and restore her mother). While I can understand wanting to present more inclusive stories, there are ways creative writers can do so naturally. Make the changes part of the ongoing story -- you wouldn't have seen the backlash that you are seeing now.

^ This right here is gold. My largest criticisms of 5E Ravenloft all break down into precisely this thought. Thank you so much for wording it better than I did, or likely ever could have.

As an aside, the 'easter eggs' sprinkled in about the previous iterations, like Lyssa von Zarovich or Sithicus actually make it worse -- it's like thumbing your nose at something people have a great love for.
.
.
Oh, and mentioning Hyskosa here when you have removed any notion of metaplot from the setting? {Grr}

I will admit begrudgingly that there is one absolutely major benefit to WotC having taken this approach. And that is that if you play a 2E/3E-lore-based campaign with someone who only knows 5E, then you will always catch them by surprise with who these figures really are.

My Curse of Strahd DM—currently one of my Feast of Goblyns players—is subscribed to D&D Beyond, so he has this entire book at his beck and call whenever he likes. Originally, when the table of contents was leaked, I told him the book was likely going to have massive spoilers and asked him kindly to refrain from reading anything about the individual domains.

After I read the book, I concluded that there were almost no spoilers whatsoever for what I plan to run for him over the coming years (Grand Conjunction 1-6, Grim Harvest 1-3, Thoughts of Darkness, Bleak House). I told him that he was free to read what he wanted, except the 4-6 pages on Kartakass since we're four sessions into Feast of Goblyns at the moment. And to be honest, the only reason I don't want him to read that section is because it spoils that Harkon Lukas is the darklord, which isn't even important in FoG, but the last thing I need is a bunch of players that know how Curse of Strahd works to think this is another game of "hunt the darklord." I'm having them go after Gundar, so that's ok. But Harkon is merely a supporting character.

But more to my point: While this book mentions Hyskosa, Azalin Rex, Firan Zal'Honan, Lyssa von Zarovich, and other such figures, treating them absurdly poorly with respect to what they deserve, it may be a blessing in disguise that it also doesn't actually spoil their secrets for the generation stepping beyond Barovia for the first time. Now, to be fair, this was clearly NOT WotC's intention. It's definitely more of a "happy accident." And yet, if I were to rewind back to before any of us knew the precise contents of this book, I would find myself hard-pressed to have expected a better silver lining than this one.

So there's two themes I want to return to. One is that the choices being made in this setting book (which is admittedly sparse) are made to reinforce the 'weekend in hell' gaming style. Here's a setting, here's you main villain, and here's what you have to do to escape. It's I6 over and over and over again.

Proof positive for me that WotC doesn't care to take the time and energy to craft real narrative for their players when they can just recycle something old in their IP instead and pass it off as new and brilliant to a generation that largely doesn't know any better. Part of my issue with 5E (which I was once an avid fan of) is the "for everyone" approach, which carelessly done products such as this seem to not only feed into, but exacerbate.

I ran multiple campaigns never leaving Ravenloft. The stories we kept coming back to were ones where the heroes were trying to fight the xenophobia, trying to carve out a safe place for themselves, their families, their neighbors. You can't do that when everything is a soulless construct, destined to repeat the same story cycle over and over.
.
.
Which leads me to the second theme -- the setting doesn't trust the DM and characters to create the stories they want. Yes, the book is a toolkit for horror, but only if you play it a certain way. What if, as a DM and a group, we wanted to explore a horror domain where elves were all slaves and the heroes liberated them? Sure, I can tell that story, but I don't need this book to do that, and it doesn't help people explore difficult topics in a mature way. The greatest horrors are of the every day kind. But it's hard to generate sympathy for NPCs when they literally (not figuratively) have been put there as window dressing to your adventure -- it makes characters numb and go through the motions, rather than explore great stories.

And those are the quality games—the ones players never forget. But those aren't the games "for everyone." It seems most players nowadays just want an excuse to kill things and get it out of their system. Narrative and social commentary is secondary, if not tertiary.

The lack of metaplot, connection between domains, or any sort of history (735 is the only year that ever was and ever will be) means that NOTHING THAT THE CHARACTERS DO MATTERS -- which is ultimately unsatisfying.

Which is why I am focusing on the importance of (and ultimate negativity behind) precisely this in my overall campaign. To summarize simply, players that have been to Barovia for Curse of Strahd once before end up going back again as new characters. And the point is for them to uncover that nothing anyone does there has mattered because everything eventually simply resets. Thankfully, I have powerful narrative reasons enforcing why this is so, and I hope that those will motivate the players to take up a new quest entirely: finally stopping the wheel from turning.

I'll admit, if there's one thing I'm good at, it's trying to find the silver lining when looking at the big picture.

I'm just disappointed that new players weren't introduced to the Ravenloft that I was, and will have to work so much harder to get the joy out of it I did. Luckily, there are those still converting old materials, keeping the flame alive. I hope they find you here, when they realize what the Red Box told us:

"The last, and perhaps most important, element of Gothic literature is the stalwart hero.... as long as there are men and women of courage and conviction, there will always be another dawn in Ravenloft..."

Couldn't agree with you more, though again, all it takes is a DM who knows the 2E/3E lore who's willing to open the door to the old world for new players. With so little of the lore ever actually spoiled in this volume, the newest generation won't be expecting the vast majority of the twists and turns and shocks and surprises that have come to characterize what most people here in all likelihood consider to be "home."

— onmyoji

[Joël of the FoS]

Dementlieu. The whole seems very simple (try not to be discovered as fraud), and I can't see anyone designing a long campaign based on what's in the book.

It's like another adventure à la Baron Evensong. A fun but short adventure in a long campaign's lenght.

I could integrate this noble to a Dementlieu campaign, but its real appearance would be short (a new noble coming in town, everybody wants to attend her parties, party goes there once in a mission, end of adventure is the noble is killed or the party are barred from coming back under penalty of death).

And I think the ghoul servants is strange as hell.

[CrackedMack]

And I think the ghoul servants is strange as hell.

Someone must have really liked the mental image of ghouls in servants livery as a theme?

Then again, we had that in Night of the Walking Dead.

[Faust]

The book and game design unfortunately fell prey to a puritanical ideology that despise the kind of story being told in the ravenloft setting. Pandering to the inherent fragility of the woke crowd force the designers to rely on woke kitsch to remove so called ¨problematics¨ elements which ultimately defeat the purpose of the horror story being told. VRGR doesn't feel like a dnd book but like a souless propaganda piece.

[TwiceBorn Reborn]

Some of you good people are probably going to seethe when you see this review compilation over at ENWorld. https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-ric ... ay.680221/

I don't have the book yet so don't think it would be fair for me to comment, but it would be great to see some FoS members share their views over at ENWorld.


EDIT: link doesn't seem to be working, even though I double checked it... not sure what's going on?

[onmyoji]

EDIT: link doesn't seem to be working, even though I double checked it... not sure what's going on?

https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-ric ... ay.680221/

This should do it. The multiple dashes in the URL seem to have caused issue with the auto-generated hyperlink.

— onmyoji

[TwiceBorn Reborn]

EDIT: link doesn't seem to be working, even though I double checked it... not sure what's going on?

https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-ric ... ay.680221/

This should do it. The multiple dashes in the URL seem to have caused issue with the auto-generated hyperlink.

— onmyoji

Thanks bud!

[onmyoji]

Thanks bud!

I owe you more than that after your help with the Greyhawk lore, my dude.

— onmyoji