Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenloft

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Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenloft

Post by Hell_Born »

It is a common wisdom, at least so I am of the impression, that Ravenloft is best suited for low-level campaigns. And this is something I honestly can agree with; D&D, at its core, is a heroic fantasy emulator - as PCs grow stronger, they become more resilient, more capable, better suited for overcoming what obstacles they face, and that challenges the basic assumptions of standard Ravenloft.

But... an imp of the perverse compels me to ask: what if we ignore this logic? What if we consider allowing epic level - as in, 15+ - adventurers into Ravenloft?

The first thing to come to mind is to simply roll with; play Ravenloft as an Action Horror setting - less Bram Stoker's Dracula, more Castlevania: the PCs did their time sweating it out at low levels, terrified of everything that went bump in the night, but they persevered, they got stronger, and now it's payback time. I know some folks will sneer at this whole idea, but, hey, there are players who would be perfectly happy with that interpretation. I'm not knocking the standard assumptions of Ravenloft, but I have known folks who prefer the idea of "Ravenloft as the Castlevania setting".

The second thing to come to mind is this: turn the epic level on its head. I read recently somewhere that DC basically thinks of its cast of heroes as modern day gods - which, as this source put it, makes them rather terrifying figures when you think about them from the perspective of the people around them. Epic level adventurers in D&D are, similarly, figures that lower level beings would find terrifying. This is heightened in 4th edition, which really embraced the heroic fantasy core of D&D, but in any edition, a sufficiently high-leveled band of adventures is a band of figures that can massacre towns, cut down armies, level buildings. They are an apocalypse walking around. With this in mind, I could easily envision a scenario in which the party plays as low-level native adventurers in the wake of a band of epic leveled Outlanders who have reacted to the torments of Ravenloft by lashing out. Not blindly, but still, their wake is one of fear, chaos, bloodshed and destruction. How do you, as a mere mortal, defeat demigods who do not recognize you as anything but something to break if it gets in their way? I'm sure that you brilliant minds can figure out how to make such a campaign into one of fear, right?

Finally, I can't help but wonder; what about melding these two ideas in some way? Say, your party gets to the high levels - and that means the challenges they face escalate as well? They cut down the rampaging werewolf pack with almost casual ease, and then they see the locals they saved are as terrified of them as they were of the beasts - after all, no "men" could defeat such monsters like that; the party must be monsters as well. As they grow into people with the power to reshape nations, their reputation precedes them - bringing terror in its wake. When once they battled small bands of brigands, now, they might be drawn into battle against armies fielded by intimidated tyrants, and the more they fight, the more monstrous they will seem.

I don't know... what do you all think?
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Re: Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenlo

Post by Mistmaster »

I like it; I would adjust DL powers accordingly , thought; A 15 level spellcaster can easily dispatch the likes of Adam, Ivan, Ivana, Dominic ecc, ecc; Only Stradh, Azalin e Ankhthepot are powerfull enought to be a challnge. If you want to keep the feeling of overwhelming power, you could escalate theyr powers acordingly. At true epic levels they might have to face a freed Gwidion himself.
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Re: Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenlo

Post by GreenWood »

I have done several high level games in Ravenloft. The Castlevania approach is totally fun. It works. I have always viewed the Land of Mists as a prison for evil beings, and Vecna was an actual demigod so that's the range you have to go with. Demon Lord's, super Death Knights, liches, Crawling Heads, Nightshades, Nightmare beasts, There are lots of terrible things that could be pulled in to challenge and horrify powerful PCs. I used a Corpse Tearer Linnorm in a wilderness adventure once and my group still talks about how awful it was.
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Re: Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenlo

Post by GreenWood »

Another line of thinking is to shift things from Gothic to Cosmic when your group gets really powerful, and things don't challenge them as much. Like in Bloodbourne, the two genres can be mixed. I know that's not what everyone would do, but Cthulhu and his relatives are a horrific challenge for any group. I have the D20 Call of Cthulhu book and a Shoggoth can wreck a group.
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Re: Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenlo

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Making an epic campaign in Ravenloft isn't too hard if you remember two credos of Gothic horror: power is relative and everything has a price.

An example of the first is that as the characters get more powerful, the people in power become more interested in them. That idea has been discussed in canon works like HoL and CoD, as well as other threads on this site. The party may be able to level entire armies or destroy (relatively) weak darklords without breaking a sweat, but they can still be manipulated by giving them false information since Divination spells don't work properly in RL. Or by going after those they care about. Or blackmailing them. All that power the party has won't mean a thing if they can't bring it to bear against those opposing them. Especially devious is using dominated pawns who are innocent and slap anyone who kills or abuses them with powers checks. It's a cheap trick but it works.

An example of the second is that as a party's ability to influence the campaign world grows, so do the consequences. Again since Divination spells don't work properly, there's no way to know what the potential outcome of any endeavor will be without careful, non-mystical considerations of what could happen. Take out a darklord and what could happen? The entire domain might simply dissolve back into the Mists (condemning those living there to instant death), it might be absorbed by a neighboring domain (look at Gundarak) and elevate its darklord in personal or political power, or a whole new darklord could take their place.

At epic levels it's not just the darklords the characters have to worry about. The Dark Powers themselves might start looking at them more closely and send them to oubliettes or send strange things borne out of the Mists after them. Or the characters find themselves facing moral dilemmas that require them to use (or not use) their greater level of power to achieve the greater good.

The point is that epic characters need to consider their actions just the same as weaker ones but for different reasons. Direct combat challenges have their place, but this is a story-based campaign setting and the story-based challenges should be just as epic.

As an aside, countering epic spells is deceptively simple. The first way is to rule that epic spells (and powers) don't work in RL; it's a low-magic campaign world, after all. The second is to make epic spells especially difficult to cast, allow the domain's darklord to automatically sense its casting--unless it's done in a reality wrinkle--or both.
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Re: Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenlo

Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

I don't know if anyone remembers, but I deliberately started the Reckonings epic level RL campaign to test whether this would work. An epic outlander party gets stuck in Saragoss, hilarity ensues. It eventually fizzled out, but as for the idea of whether RL was a challenge to epic characters, I think it successfully showed that Ravenloft undermines the concept of "epic" because strength in a morally ambiguous setting generates its own resistance. One charismatic PC in Reckonings encouraged an abused daughter to stand up to her mother and leave, and the mother felt highly justified in the Dangerous curse she invoked on him in response. A Mass Heal spell restored the minds and bodies of mad cannibals AND their half-eaten victims, to the point where they could not easily tell which was whom. And the luck blade one of the PC's carried into RL wound up in the hands of the Nightmare Man, with one wish left.... :azalin: :davion:

Think about it: an epic-level paladin facing off against the Midnight Slasher can't just kill her (a mid-level challenge), he has to redeem her (an epic-level challenge). The Dark Powers take relative power into account, too; the PC's may not have to make a check for killing a DL, but many other situations might generate powers checks if they take the lazy approach.
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Re: Whence Rides The Apocalypse; Epic Adventurers in Ravenlo

Post by Rathbone »

There are still ways to scare PCs, regardless of level. My party is relatively low level right now but the NPC with whom they are currently travelling is well-liked by all of them. Over the course of the next two or three adventures, the bond will grow stronger. I estimate they'll be in double figures in terms of level when brave Sir Archibald (that's the NPC) falls victim to a vampire lord and becomes one of the undead. That's really going to hit them where they live, irrespective of how many Hit Points their characters have.
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